Resilience

[djbowen]

From your product description:

There is no single part
that can cause an entire system to fail. For example,
if a lightning strike disables your HAI controller, light
switches still control the lights and thermostats still
control your heating and cooling system.

Can you explain how this is possible? Are all the smarts in the devices themselves? If so what does the controller do?

It is an interesting product range but I am concerned with how robust it is in practice - especially in an area with frequent power supply interruptions.

 

[Brian Yokum]

From your product description:

There is no single part
that can cause an entire system to fail. For example,
if a lightning strike disables your HAI controller, light
switches still control the lights and thermostats still
control your heating and cooling system.

Can you explain how this is possible? Are all the smarts in the devices themselves? If so what does the controller do?

It is an interesting product range but I am concerned with how robust it is in practice - especially in an area with frequent power supply interruptions.

Dan,

What we are saying is that the controller integrates a number of stand-alone subsystems. That is, our thermostats communicate with a controller if one is present, but if a controller is not being used or is not operating properly, the thermostat will continue to control the HVAC system like a normal thermostat. Contrast this with a central controller utilizing temperature inputs and relay outputs to emulate the functionality of a number of thermostats. If the controller fails, ALL the HVAC systems stop working.

Similarly, our UPB light switches directly control lights when operated manually at the switch. If the controller fails, the switch can still be used to control the light.

A central control DOES add functionality when it is operational, such as controlling multiple subsystems through a single keypress or scheduling lights to turn on/off at certain times. If the controller fails you'll lose this functionality, but you are no worse off than if your home had standard thermostats and wall switches.

 

[djbowen]

Nice explanation. Thanks.

I guess that power interruptions would cause no more issue than without your HA system then?

You mention UPB for your light controls - this gives you a broadcast network I guess. Do you use this also for heating controls or do you use a more direct control (i.e. dedicated wiring)? I personally would consider heating controls to be a higher risk than lighting. What about direct machinery (e.g. garage door opener)?

I guess what I am saying is that although I like the convenience of HA I am concerned about the safety - perhaps unnecessarily? I would be interested in your thoughts - do you use such a system yourself for instance? Perhaps other forum users could point me to previous threads if this would be more appropriate.

Dan

 

[Steve]

I apologize for posting in the HAI forum but the OP asked and this really sounds more like a general topic.

Dan: I can't point to a specific thread that answers your question or addresses your 'fear', the entire site is full of examples. Home Automation is intended to make your life a little easier and more pleasurable. It can do some of the mundane things for you like simply turn things on and off or it can do all kinds of things based on certain conditions. But as Brian stated, if you build your system with intelligent/standalone subsystems that work completely on their own in the same typical old fashioned manual way and use a central controller like the Omni, if anything happens to the main controller or even any of the subsystems, you should still retain a basic level of functionality. Sure you may lose all the automated controls and logic but you should still be able to operate your lights, HVAC, garage door, irrigation, etc. Alot just depends on how you do things. Just as a few examples - you mentioned garage door, well that is simply putting a contact closure across your existing button, so the controller can trigger your door to open and close or you just do it manually with the button same as now. If you had something like (not recommended, just an example) your garage door automatically opens when a motion detector is tripped, if the main controller is down that would not work, but your old buttons still do as normal.

Now like I said it depends on how you do things. On the other side, I personally have my irrigation controlled via relays on my controller. If my controller fails, yes, the way I have it setup I would lose ability to turn on irrigation. But I chose to do it that way as I consider irrigation non critical and I could live without it for the few days it would take to repair/replace the controller. But - there ARE othe ways to do it where it can be controlled by the controller OR manual.

So, I would not really worry about a safety concern or anything by introducing automation. Could you open your garage door and disarm the security system when somebody opens your mailbox? Sure and that would be really bad and unsafe, but that is a purposeful set of programming you would simply not do. HA is great and safe if designed and setup properly.

Hope that helps a little - if not, please post more specific questions.

 

[djbowen]

Thanks for you comment Steve. I understand the sentiment but am still concerned that HA based around power-line data transmission opens your house up to abuse from other people on your estate who share the same utility lines. Is this a realistic concern or has testing been done on this to prove its robustness?

 

[HAI_fjh]

UPB networks have a network ID and a password to prevent your neighbors from being able to affect your units.

UPB is a well established technology with millions of installations. Fundamental issues like reliability, flexibility and security have been well thought out. You might want to do some reading on the HAI web site, the PCS web site (the developers of UPB), of even Wikipedia to find out more about how it works.

HAI chose UPB as it's underlying technology for the HLC line of products because of the many benefits it brings to the table. One of the BIG advantages is the ability to retrofit an existing building. In most cases you simply replace existing switches with UPB switches, configure them, and your home is automated. When I automated my home that was all that was necessary. Now when I go to bed, I just push the "Bed Time" button on my console and all the lights go off, the thermostat is set to the night time setting and the security is armed. I love it.

OK here 's the HAI plug... UPB is great, but HLC ads ease of setup and configuration.

Seriously UPB is a good way to go and much easier to install than centrally controlled hard wired systems. Additionally since UPB devices are smart, as a part of the UPB specification, they can still operate and perform many functions even if the central controller is unavailable.

 

[CollinR]

Yea I think this topic should be moved into the more general areas as this isn't really an HAI issue.

You can put filters on your incoming feed to prevent snooping your powerline controls.

 

[RArbour]

Do you use this also for heating controls or do you use a more direct control (i.e. dedicated wiring)?

With the HAI system, the thermostat is currently connected to the OMNI via a direct cable. The thermostat does not use UPB.

As mentioned before the thermostat functions normally stand alone, and the controller just monitors the status (to display on other devices), and has the ability to change settings (ie. cool setpoint).

UPB/HLC is meant for devices that utilize the 120V wiring in your house (lights, fans, appliances...etc). Although it is possible to control heating with UPB (space heaters, transformers/relays), it is not the norm.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for you comment Steve. I understand the sentiment but am still concerned that HA based around power-line data transmission opens your house up to abuse from other people on your estate who share the same utility lines. Is this a realistic concern or has testing been done on this to prove its robustness?

As has been said, its pretty well been proven. Does the possibility exist that some super hacker can break into your UPB network - sure, I guess its possible. But what are they going to do, turn your lights on and off? I don't think it would be worth somebody's time and effort just for that. But the beauty of HA is that you can put any system in you want. The truth is that hardwired lighting control will always be the most reliable and secure and if you can do it then there is your answer. The problem is it is very difficult to do hardwire lighting in existing homes/retrofits. The easiest option there would be something like the ALC lighting system where the house remains traditionally wired but is controlled by hardwire. But you would need to run a Cat5 to all your switch locations. If that is possible for you then you can easily reap the benefits of lighting control without the fear of the power line. UPB or any other PLC lighting system really shines in a retrofit where you simply replace switches and don't need any control wires. But be aware you do need a neutral at the switch box for UPB devices which may not always be there.

 

[djbowen]

Thank you for your help guys. I'll put any other general comments in the other threads but it is good to hear straight from the engineers wherever possible.

 

[jharrell]

UPB networks have a network ID and a password to prevent your neighbors from being able to affect your units.

From what I understand this is not true and was actually very confusing when I first setup UPB with my HAI system. UPB security is actually not any better than x10, it has more network ID's so it has a less likelyhood of conflict with neighbors, but the password is only used for device setup not actual control messages.

That is a malicious neighbor or individual with access to a power outlet on the same transformer could rather easily sniff your network ID and send commands to units on that network ID without knowing your upb password.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the UPB wire protocol is not encrypted using a password nor is a password even sent in the clear with each control message, which would allow sniffing but would prevent network ID conflicts at least almost all together.

Don't get me wrong UPB is a great technology and I will never use x10 again if I can help it (HAI please look at making UPB outdoor motion flood lights) but it is still insecure and should never be used for say garage door control or security sensors as it is easily compromised.

I would imagine at some point in the future UPB will be replaced by IP over powerline with some sort of encryption like WiFi has with WEP/WPA once cost can come down, wouldnt it be great if you setup switches using a web browser .

Justin

 

[electron]

Justin, don't mean to go off topic here, but you can automate regular flood lights with a regular UPB light switch. I did this, and also connected the motion sensor directly to my security system as a bonus.

 

[jharrell]

Justin, don't mean to go off topic here, but you can automate regular flood lights with a regular UPB light switch. I did this, and also connected the motion sensor directly to my security system as a bonus.

You can, but it's not as nice or simple as one of these:x10 floodlight and if like me you have 5 floodlights on one ciruit it's more difficult to control them individually since one switch turns them all on/off.

Also besides a upb floodlight how about a upb ceiling fan control as well?