Upcoming change in CQC pricing

If you report a bug, and it's confirmed that it's a bug or cannot be determined without further investigation, then obviously it can be escalated if needed. But, if you want the right to pick up the phone and call any time you want, that will cost you. That's the tradeoff for the very low prices, support is now a separate thing. Instead of paying for it for every system, it's paid for once per year on a per person basis.
 
I would understand if there is a legitimate need for a DIY'er to have to get on the phone to resolve something...it's just not something that ever occured to me to do. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a CQC power user...unless all the power was concentrated in the drivers, because that's about all I really do. :mellow: I really should try some of this "interface" and "automation" stuff I keep hearing CQC can do...

I would think at some point, getting help as a DIYer would cross into the "you need help from a professional" to get what you want done. *shrug* It's good to know what the limitations of help you might get as DIYer are, but I think for the vast majority of people, the forums will be more than enough.
 
DaveB clarified his original statement and apparently only works on designing templates for hire. I'm deleting my original message because of this.
 

Please keep ALL CQC pricing related posts to this and the Polling threads.

Please keep posts to vital updated information and opinions of valued use to our membership.

Thanks,

BSR
CocoonTech Moderator
 
Awww... I tell ya, if Dean didn't occasionally change the price structure of CQC, I wouldn't have any internet drama! :mellow:
 
Haven't visited in a while, was curious to see what folks here thought of the pricing move, this thread seems surpising. Then again it always surprises me to see people whine about the cost the software engine for an HA system when it's usually <10% of the overall cost.

Regardless, lets see how much this would cost me if I had started new. Here's what I have (mostly as documented on myhometheaterpc.com, some stuff hasn't made it up there yet):

$24K in parts that I'd need drivers for, although a lot of this is off eBay and would cost me MUCH more now (like my $500 NuVo Concerto, that was a steal)
- 2 Aprilaire HVACs
- Squeezebox
- Marantz DVD player (serial controllable)
- Pioneer Plasma
- 2 Sage HD Extenders
- USBUIRT
- VK011 Temp Sensor
- NuVo Concerto ($500 on eBay, baby!)
- Denon 3805
- Rain8Net
- VidaBox Nevo VS70 remote control
- 2 PDA cellphones (never connected at same time), but I didn't include this in the cost
- 2 IRA3 IR receivers
- 1 Touchscreen

I have ~20 drivers as there's some misc crap (weatherchannel, timers, variables, mobo audio).

I think that means I'd need:
- $200 Base
- $150 2 IV clients (laptop + 1 TS)
- $150 2 RIVA Clients
- $125 Logic
- $150 Event
- $125 Web
I have no need for the XML gateway (I think), app control or Media Repo(I use a squeezebox).

So that's $1000 as opposed to $600. That means my investment would go from $24.6K to $25K (assuming I can find stuff that cheap again, it's more likely that the hardware would be closer to $27K-$29K). I don't feel like i'm allowed to piss & moan about an increase of 1.6% in the overall cost of my DIY HA nvestment if it keeps my core engine viable.

Oh but wait - there's more! Back when CQC first raised prices past the $2xx mark, I priced out what ML would have cost me to do the same. In 2006, a Cinemar-based solution would have cost me $1505 and I had even less stuff than I have now, although I don't have the desire to re-price this.

So really, CQC is STILL cheaper than what the competition would cost for anyone with a decent sized system.

BTW, if the above surprises me, then it floors me to see professionals complain about the company they're basing revenue on ask for a $500-$2K support cost (max) when that's only 5-20 hours of billable work @$100/hr. Heck, if you're making $$ off something, wouldn't you think that giving up revenues of <1 day of work for a year of support is a good tradeoff? If you're not good enough to get an extra 5-20 hours of billable work to offset support costs, well, I don't know what to tell you.
 
Oh but wait - there's more! Back when CQC first raised prices past the $2xx mark, I priced out what ML would have cost me to do the same. In 2006, a Cinemar-based solution would have cost me $1505 and I had even less stuff than I have now, although I don't have the desire to re-price this.

So really, CQC is STILL cheaper than what the competition would cost for anyone with a decent sized system.

BTW Dean, in no way shape or form am I suggesting you raise the price of CQC by another $500 to achieve parity with Cinemar's costs; seems like posters would really eat you alive then :)
 
BTW, if the above surprises me, then it floors me to see professionals complain about the company they're basing revenue on ask for a $500-$2K support cost (max) when that's only 5-20 hours of billable work @$100/hr. Heck, if you're making $$ off something, wouldn't you think that giving up revenues of <1 day of work for a year of support is a good tradeoff? If you're not good enough to get an extra 5-20 hours of billable work to offset support costs, well, I don't know what to tell you.

I am in no way trying to speak for any professionals out there, but I think the complaints in this area would really be in situations where it's a genuine software problem. I am not sure that the installer should he charging a customer for problems that are out of their control - maybe Im wrong. That's along the lines of selling someone a lemon vehicle, then charging them for service to repair the vehicle. If that is the case, I could see it being pretty difficult to recoup those costs - morally/ethically anyway :mellow:

If you are indeed a professional installer, and you obviously have a great knowledge of CQC, I am not sure I see many instances where the installer would be contacting CQC support and need to be charging a customer for that time as well. Maybe that's just my naive, lack of CQC user self.

Another situation, would be if the installer may not be quite as qualified as one would think, and he spends hours with support on a design issue or other that he should really already know how to do. Should the customer be charged for hours on-site, for the installer to "learn" the software? I understand that it's software and there are various ways to accomplish any given task, some taking less time than others. So, sure I can see a more experienced installer taking less time and possibly charging the customer less (usually not the case as those installers may value their time at a higher rate), but this is another example where your "professional" installer could be talking with support for hours and billing you for their learning curve.

None of this is to say that a professional installer shouldn't value the support CQC would offer in any case. I am certain that they need and want the support, they are simply whining about the cost increase, as everyone else is, both professionals and DIYs. No one ever likes to see price increases, whether the economy is getting better or not (who's to say?), but you are really given 2 options, pay for it or don't.
 
The pro support fees would be rolled into the cost of the software, charged to the client. If one estimates 4 installs a year, split the support fee 4 ways, and charge that much more to each client, for the software. It's not brain engineering, and it's not that much more over the base charge to the customer, especially considering all the hardware (as IVB points out).

I think I read that AMX was charging for support, too, similarly.
 
I am in no way trying to speak for any professionals out there, but I think the complaints in this area would really be in situations where it's a genuine software problem. I am not sure that the installer should he charging a customer for problems that are out of their control - maybe Im wrong. That's along the lines of selling someone a lemon vehicle, then charging them for service to repair the vehicle. If that is the case, I could see it being pretty difficult to recoup those costs - morally anyway :mellow:
The lemon analogy isn't accurate - if there's a legitimate bug, Dean has mentioned an escalation path a few pages back.

But on to your other question. And as long as we're talking about the pro sector, let me ground us in some metrics. I'll use my own install as I can't speak to anyone elses. What you'll see below is that the $2K/year (max) for a moderately competent professional won't even enter the equation, hell, it seems to me that CQC is still vastly underpriced compared to what it allows you to do. Then again Dean probably has to do that in order to break into the market, as installers will otherwise stick with AMX/Crestron/etc.

As shown above, I have $24K in probably 50% used eBay parts. If I were a pro, I'd likely have to source ~$35K MSRP in parts as I couldn't put used stuff into someone's home. Furthermore, (as shown on myhometheaterpc.com) my setup would be about 450 manhours to reproduce (at least, i haven't re-upped those #s in a while). 200 manhours of 'smart' work, 250 hours of wiring.Assuming a blended rate of $75/hour ($50/hr for wiring, $50/hr for intelligent work), that's $36K.

So now, we're at:
-$35k in parts
-$36K in labor
-$ 1K for CQC


Option A) You're a 1 man shop to just do CQC templates, and the customer buys & integrates his own hardware.
If you're a "single shingle", then at $100/hour, that's 20 hours of work. If you're a single shingle, then I hope you're getting at least 1000 hours of billable work per year, or else you need a different profession. (When I was in management consulting, I typically hit 1800-2400/year.) So really, your margin just got cut by 2%. Instead of making $100/hour, you're making $98/hour. But in return you get the ability to call the very company who's product you rely upon to generate revenue you depend on at will. Seems like a great deal to me.

Option B ) You have a few wiring monkeys working for you and you source the hardware.
If you have a few guys working for you, then in my install you could personally do the 200 manhours of 'smart' work and let the wiring monkeys do the other 250 manhours. Assuming you have a mega-long sales lead time and only work 50% of the time, that'll take you 10 weeks to do my house. You can do 5 installs at my level per year.
- You're making at LEAST 20 points (typically 35%) on the hardware, which is $36K * 0.2 = $7K/install.
- You're probably not paying your guys $50/hour, you're probably paying your guys $25/hour(MAX) because, see, they're wiring monkeys. At 250 manhours, that's $6.2K/install.
- Your personal time is 200 manhours @$100/hour, or $20K/install.
- At 5 installs per year, your topline gross is 5 * $20K plus 5 *$7K plus 5 * $6K = $165K.
- The $2K/year for telephone support for the 'glue' that makes this all possible is 1.2%. BTW, the CQC software is only $1K/$72K = 1.3% of the overall cost. So now in TOTAL, CQC is only getting 2.5% of the overall job but in return gives you the knowledge & products to differentiate your job from the schmoe who just put in a basic HAI system.

Either path seems like CQC support & license is still underpriced to me and I don't see how any legitimate professional has grounds to complain, especially since they're probably well used to the 'I will bill them for every hour I possibly can' model. This is a fixed fee, given the # hours Dean spends for that $$ amount he probably makes less than the McDonalds burger flippers.

Will there be any losers? Sure, a dude who does <50 hours of CQC per year with no projections to grow that over time, at a flat $5K/year in revenue, and now has to decide whether to pay $500-$2K of that to CQC for support. Then again if you're only doing 50 CQC hours per year with no growth projections, you're spreading yourself too thin, and should tighten your business model to focus on a few things where you can excel. After all, if you only do 50 hours of work per year on something you're never going to be very good, and should stick with something you can excel in, and create a competitive advantage.
 
hmm, i typo'ed above, you pass the CQC cost on to the consumer, so the ability to call your HA engine vendor is only 1.2% of your topline revenue. I better stop, or Dean really will want to raise the price even more...
 
Hehe, I definitely hear both of you guys above. Rolling it out as part of the initial cost makes sense. I was looking at it with tunnel vision and simply comparing the increase in support cost, to directly billing the end users for that support - and trying to figure out what situation made since for said billing to customer.

The main thing I was pointing out, was in the last statement, the price is going up, and people are going to complain. As IVB stated, it's still probably the cheapest professional alternative, so those professional installers are most likely to suck it up and deal with it either way.
 
Hehe, I definitely hear both of you guys above. Rolling it out as part of the initial cost makes sense. I was looking at it with tunnel vision and simply comparing the increase in support cost, to directly billing the end users for that support - and trying to figure out what situation made since for said billing to customer.

The main thing I was pointing out, was in the last statement, the price is going up, and people are going to complain. As IVB stated, it's still probably the cheapest professional alternative, so those professional installers are most likely to suck it up and deal with it either way.

Keep in mind that in my option B above, the cost is actually going down significantly. It used to be ~$2600 for a pro license, now that's $1K (in my case). Hence the total bill is $1600 lower. The integrator can throw in $1600 of hardware for the same overall cost, on 5 installs that means 5 * $1600 = another $8000 in revenue. At a 35% margin, that's another $2800 in gross profit.

And bada bing, just like that, Dean just
A) handed the integrator another $800 in profit while getting free telephone support (at 5 installs per year)
B) the end-user who hires a pro gets more hardware for the same $$ amount,
C) the DIY & Pro prices are aligned

That means:
1) real pro's will be partying in the streets once they realize the above,
2) this won't have a tangible impact on any serious DIY'er as it's a minor % of overall costs and the competition could still be more expensive for less functionality.
3) Allows pro's to directly support DIY'ers (which was previously verboten given the discrepancy in licensing costs)

The only one who loses is the occasional CQC pro, or the ones who were skirting the rules. Neither seems like a reason to get up in arms, it's probably a relationship best dissolved anyhow.
 
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