Alarm system for new Loxone setup

[jeditekunum]

I'm planning for new construction and intend to install a Loxone automation system. Loxone has some security capability but is inadequate for my needs. So I'm looking for the right type of dedicated alarm system with excellent automation integration capabilities.
 
By "right type" I mean one that doesn't duplicate automation capabilities. For example, OmniPro and ELK are likely more than I need - and at the same time probably missing some capabilities.
 
Features I need:
 
- primarily wired; some wireless (only panic buttons initially)
- monitoring integration (IP and cell)
- smoke/heat/CO2 detectors with centralized battery
- burglar
- access control
- remote/distant sensor/control (~500' from home)
- full access from Loxone (RS232/RS485/IP)
 
I think I've found the right solution: Networx NX-8E with lots of add-ons.
 
Anyone have any advice that would point towards a better solution?
 
Suggestions for best source for DIY Networx products?
 
Thanks
 

 

[cobra]

Not being familiar with the Interlogix/GE Networx systems, I took a quick look.  Do you have a deal on hardware?  It looks to me like they are fairly expensive compared to an ELK, DSC, or Vista system.  If budget isn't a concern, then maybe that's the way to go.  Hopefully others who have experience with this system will add opinions.

 

[Del91574]

I probably wouldn't recommend the NX8 or an Interlogix branded product.
 
They're cheaper than their contemporaries, but the engineering has always seemed lacking. The history of the product line is they used to be made by Caddx until GE bought them, which the overall history of GE/UTC had been to buy out older product lines and manufacturers, get them under the GE monniker and essentially orphan the product line. This holds true across all the GE security holdings and I've been in the business 20 years. The build quality of the panels is so-so IMHO. Even GE's wireless product line is a holdover from a different manufacturer.
 
For a product that is going to integrate directly with a larger HA system, I probably would look at a different manufacturer.

 

[jeditekunum]

Good info, but... alternative?
 
From what I've been able to determine so far, ELK and OmniPro are deficient compared to my list of features. I suppose it is possible to combine with other products to get to a satisfying frankenstein (even more than it will be already).
 
I'll have to research DSC and Vista further. Can they satisfy the entire feature list?
 
One of the things that impressed me about the NX stuff is all the documentation is readily available - a must have for a DIYer. Doesn't seem to be headed for orphan status as there are new modules/keypads being added - as recent as last year. I do see that there are multiple products lines which can't be good.
 
Overall, so far, I'm unimpressed by what is in the market.

 

[jeditekunum]

Looking at DSC PowerSeries Neo...
 
It appears distant stuff would have to be wireless or 3rd-party extender of some kind.
 
Access control is not included - have to integrate with Kantech which is EXPENSIVE! I could do access control via Loxone.
 
There is an RS232 interface available on the IP/cell module - but I cannot find any info on the protocol. This is the ultimate killer for DIY automation.

 

[jeditekunum]

Vista is even worse.
 
OmniPro seems to be the only alternative. Which would duplicate a lot of Loxone capability - I intentionally chose Loxone over OmniPro for other automation tasks

 

[fcwilt]

ELK has what you might consider an advantage over OmniPro2 - the ELK is more modular when it comes to expansion.
 
Having installed both I tend to prefer the ELK in most situations.
 
However I have no idea how easy either would be to tie into Loxone as I have not worked with Loxone since very early on.
 
Frederick

 

[Del91574]

Your short list eliminates all the panels and integration features with the exception of 2 manufacturers really....Elk and DMP. You could do it with HAI, but they don't truly offer a direct and robust weigand solution direct to the panel.
 
I've installed all the manufacturers out there and I can honestly tell you the Interlogix family is one of the least supported products out there and will be heading to pasture before the counterparts.
 
The item you need to consider is if and how the panel get any data or interface via a 3rd party product, either IP or serial. The majority aren't going to directly interface with 3rd party products. That said, all have some sort of output to serial. How that is accessed varies. Direct output via TCP/IP is another story.
 
Monitoring is NOT going to directly interface with any 3rd party product. Central station monitoring via any method is pretty much a closed item.
 
From dealing with all the products and major HA platforms (Elan, Crestron, etc.) the majority of how they all function is to take a basic serial protocol information (ASCII or what have you) and build off the HA backend from the ASCII. Pretty basic stuff.

 

[Sparkman1]

Looking at DSC PowerSeries Neo...
 
It appears distant stuff would have to be wireless or 3rd-party extender of some kind.
 
Access control is not included - have to integrate with Kantech which is EXPENSIVE! I could do access control via Loxone.
 
There is an RS232 interface available on the IP/cell module - but I cannot find any info on the protocol. This is the ultimate killer for DIY automation.

Take a look at the non-Neo PowerSeries instead.  Add the IT100 module to the bus and interface to its serial interface.  Its serial protocol is well documented and there are drivers/plugins for most HA platforms.  Protocol doc: http://cms.dsc.com/download.php?t=1&id=16238
 
Cheers
Al

 

[jeditekunum]

Really appreciate the guidance I'm receiving here! Thanks.
 
Serial protocol is all I need for integration - I'm a software engineer.
 
Thanks for the non-Neo suggestion. Any suggestions on an access control that would integrate and not be obscenely priced? Is the programming software (DLS I think) only available to dealers?
 
Digging around I discovered the EnvisaLink product. Anyone know if this can be coordinated with a cell module (or a IP/cell module)?

 

[jeditekunum]

Another possible approach...
 
A fire-only panel with separate communicator. All burglar and access control done in Loxone which triggers appropriate contacts on the communicator.
 
This is sounding more and more like the best approach. Minimal dedicated equipment required for meeting fire codes.

 

[Sparkman1]

Really appreciate the guidance I'm receiving here! Thanks.
 
Serial protocol is all I need for integration - I'm a software engineer.
 
Thanks for the non-Neo suggestion. Any suggestions on an access control that would integrate and not be obscenely priced? Is the programming software (DLS I think) only available to dealers?
 
Digging around I discovered the EnvisaLink product. Anyone know if this can be coordinated with a cell module (or a IP/cell module)?

 
I'm not sure about access control integration as I don't use it.  DLS is in theory available only to dealers, but there are versions floating around on the internet.  If you do go this route and you have trouble finding it, PM me and I can hook you up.  EnvisaLink connects to the same bus as the IT100 and outputs as ethernet.  There are drivers/plugins for the Envisalink interface for some HA products.  Not sure if the protocols are published or if it was reverse engineered.

 

[Del91574]

Really appreciate the guidance I'm receiving here! Thanks.
 
Serial protocol is all I need for integration - I'm a software engineer.
 
Thanks for the non-Neo suggestion. Any suggestions on an access control that would integrate and not be obscenely priced? Is the programming software (DLS I think) only available to dealers?
 
Digging around I discovered the EnvisaLink product. Anyone know if this can be coordinated with a cell module (or a IP/cell module)?

I gave you two panels that offer direct weigand reader integration to them.

 

[jeditekunum]

As this is DIY I guess it comes down to only 1 option - ELK.

 

[fcwilt]

As this is DIY I guess it comes down to only 1 option - ELK.

 
Which is a fine product with good expansion capability. If you can integrate it with Loxone to your satisfaction the two should make a great setup.
 
Frederick