Alarm system for new Loxone setup

Del91574 · May 7, 2017

When you generate the reversed polarity on a non-alarmed zone you will generate a fire trouble. I already told you that, it's the nature of what you are doing all the way down to the circuit board level and the integral diodes used to facilitate the tandem ring.

You may not care, but I doubt the AHJ will allow an active trouble condition to be generated and latch upon a valid active fire alarm. It's also covered within NFPA, whether or not the AHJ cites them is a different story, most I know of will want to see a functional test.

I put the economics out there. You're at $75 or so per detector + the module. Right at the cost within a couple bucks of an addressable detector and sounder base. Only variable is what the reset portion (if interfacing with a 3rd party) is, so 2 double monitor modules and you're done. Only item is how you get the information to yourself, which is easy enough via serial to whatever 3rd party device you're using, then it's not a question of compliance, since there's no requirement to identify where a fire alarm is occurring in a structure.

jeditekunum · May 7, 2017

DELInstallations said:
When you generate the reversed polarity on a non-alarmed zone you will generate a fire trouble. I already told you that, it's the nature of what you are doing all the way down to the circuit board level and the integral diodes used to facilitate the tandem ring.

You may not care, but I doubt the AHJ will allow an active trouble condition to be generated and latch upon a valid active fire alarm. It's also covered within NFPA, whether or not the AHJ cites them is a different story, most I know of will want to see a functional test.

What is with the MANY blank lines at the end of your post? Trying to hide replies?

Sorry, I don't believe it.

COSMOD2W installation manual (http://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/Documents/i4Series_Module_Manual_I56-3871.pdf), bottom of page 1 under "GENERAL DESCRIPTION" says (emphasis mine):

Optional triggers are provided to initiate multiple modules to sound.

The paragraph containing that clearly is referring to the COSMOD2W as "the module".

By design it supports multiple zones with multiple modules. They will all sound on alarm. If, as you say, the non-alarming modules indicated trouble and, as you say, the AHJ doesn't allow that, then you are claiming that the COSMOD2W is designed and documented to provide a capability that is against code. So there are two possibilities here; either you are wrong or System Sensor designs and documents something that can't be used. If the later then the design is bad and/or the company is misleading consumers.

Page 29 of https://buy.dmp.com/products/documents/LT-1330.pdf shows exactly the config we are discussing. More than one COSMOD2W with the bell going to each one. It says all smokes will sound during a fire alarm. There are no caveats or warnings. I suppose it is possible that the panel itself ignores troubles while in alarm. But there is no indication that it wouldn't be acceptable to AHJ.

I see nothing in Google searches that suggests this is a problem.

Del91574 · May 7, 2017

Not trying to hide anything....apparently the forum software didn't like the post.

The issue here is you are attempting to place words in a statement that I did not put out there.

The module functions exactly as it's supposed to. It doesn't care what it's attached to and what conditions are generated after the tandem ring is generated, that is a function of the panel. The modules are not what would report the trouble on the non-IDC tandem triggered circuits, that is a panel function and system design issue that must be sorted as a separate entity and considered as such. You're confusing the module's design and operation when in actuality it's an entire system that must be looked at as a whole.

Think of it in alternate terms, say an aftermarket snowplow company makes their components to be installed together, but I decide I want the 8' plow to put on my 2WD 1/4 ton pickup. It may bolt up to the frame and connect to the engine, so it's fine, right? Does the plow manufacturer or whatever vehicle manufacturer I own care if I don't have 4wd or a heavy enough duty suspension for the vehicle and aftermarket accessory to work together as a system? Nope, it's a design issue.

SS's module provides reversed voltage out the IDC terminals when triggered by either a coded (Temp 3/4) bell or voltage trigger (dipswitch configured). The host panel may or may not inhibit the annunciation of troubles upon a valid FA condition. HAI, Ademco/Honeywell and Elk are a different class of panel and each have their own operation so it depends on which flavor of panel you buy then, which would need a FBP suffix to facilitate operation in the manner you're seeking, although the troubles most still be annunciated on the common trigger, which is the nature of the beast unless you separate out the common mode trigger via relay operation. (BTW, pay CLOSE attention to pg 24 of the DMP manual....why do you think that extra resistor is installed?)

I'm glad you brought up the DMP XR series product, as that product is listed as a commercial FACP by definition (and further by what options and peripheral cards you install) and only is listed to have FA devices on zones 9/10 or ONLY to a 714, which is the listed expander (not a 715) but really should be an 869 for IDC which at that point, with multiple IDC circuits and tandem ring, would most likely necessitate the installation of an 866 to make the listed assembly.

Keep in mind, the 150/550 panels that would be using this also would require the 630F separately or you purchase the panel with the annunciator panel built on the door of the panel itself to become the listed assembly.

DMP shunts the secondary alarms/troubles via programming and internal hardware coding, but that is mainly due to the panels being listed a commercial FACP once the appropriate daughter boards added.

Sorry you don't believe what I am telling you. Only 20+ years of field experience installing and designing systems of all sizes and disciplines and NICET IV certified, not my first dance. Google isn't going to answer what you are seeking as it is a specific design and performance item, not a generic search query and by nature wouldn't be found as such by their spiders.

pete_c · May 7, 2017

This is what the big blank above shows looking at the source.

I put the economics out there. You're at $75 or so per detector + the module. Right at the cost within a couple bucks of an addressable detector and sounder base. Only variable is what the reset portion (if interfacing with a 3rd party) is, so 2 double monitor modules and you're done. Only item is how you get the information to yourself, which is easy enough via serial to whatever 3rd party device you're using, then it's not a question of compliance, since there's no requirement to identify where a fire alarm is occurring in a structure.

jeditekunum · May 8, 2017

DELInstallations said:
The host panel may or may not inhibit the annunciation of troubles upon a valid FA condition.

35+ years of software/computer engineering in more than one fortune 500 tech company tells me this stuff is cryptic/confusing and the vendors do a terrible job at documenting the behavior of their devices.

I realize my logic is pointless and that I'm not going to read every document about fire codes. But here is my logic anyway. When the 2WMOD and RSS are completely separate pieces of hardware then it is not surprising that reversing the polarity with a RSS on a non-alarming zone is going to be seen as trouble by its 2WMOD. However, the COSMOD2W is a combined device. It could bloody well "shunt the troubles" because it knows what caused them - no trouble before, it triggers reversal, ignore subsequent troubles until reset. Obviously it is acceptable to ignore the troubles in this situation since apparently any FACP panel will do just that. By not doing that in the COSMOD2W, if indeed it doesn't have that smarts, then limits the number of places that module can be applied with this functionality.

I've looked at lots of panel documentation and I have yet to see anything about handling this specific situation, programming or otherwise. I haven't looked at any FACP for that because I was trying to avoid the extra expense.

I was just at a meeting with my builder today and mentioned this topic. He immediately got all excited saying that this is a real problem that he wants to know the solution for. People want to narrow down the source of alarms without spending the money on a full-fledge commercial FACP. There is obviously a need in the market that is not being met.

jeditekunum · May 8, 2017

pete_c said:
This is what the big blank above shows looking at the source.

DELInstallations could edit his post.

pete_c · May 8, 2017

Yeah here left the 120VAC wired smokes in place and installed 4-Wire zoned CO / Smokes near / next to these. It was a PITA to do this post build. (did it via the attic on the second floor and first floor)

It would be easy to do with new construction.

Never paid much attention but also have two sprinkler heads near the furnace and hot water heater here (and one smoke / CO detector there).

Primary heartbeat of the home security and automation come from the Leviton HAI Omni Pro 2. Next level automation which is more granular comes from Homeseer. Also playing with a Samsung Smarthings Hub and a few Almond + devices here.

There are OmniPro consoles and Homeseer Consoles and lately using Android tablet for a Smarthings console.

The OP2 has UPB, X10, Zigbee and ZWave connected to it. (and Homeseer and Samsung Smarthings hub).

Del91574 · May 8, 2017

Tapping out, not worth my time to explain further how the hardware functions as a system.

There is nothing cryptic other than understanding building code and the theory of operation on embedded hardware and related appliances connected together as a system. There's a way to do this, which would be using devices there's a single manufacturer for, but again, generally not acceptable to code or function with the hardware that people want. Also less of a ROI for most users. It can be done, but the method to do it using listed methods are limited and frankly, the market ain't there because it's not sexy to do for an end user vs. turn X light on or do ABC using an app.

If you'd like to talk credentials, NICET IV fire engineer here, with enough certifications to perform what I need to. 20+ years employed for F100 companies installing and engineering systems for the F500 and F1000 companies and 5 years at a high level mom and pop before I was doing large scale integration.

jeditekunum · May 9, 2017

pete_c said:
Yeah here left the 120VAC wired smokes in place and installed 4-Wire zoned CO / Smokes near / next to these. It was a PITA to do this post build. (did it via the attic on the second floor and first floor)

I really don't want to have a duplicate system. Besides my desire to know which general area is alarming, and again due to my disability, I don't want to have to change batteries in the typical home smoke. I know I can use long-life lithium or buy smokes with embedded batteries that last as long as the detector. But still. I have this nagging feeling that there is some circumstance where the traditional approach will make noise when I don't want it - for example chirping in the night about low battery or time to replace the unit. Even my perfectly healthy and capable builder complained about that.

So it seems that I will be forced to spend the money on a full commercial FACP setup. For a home. I don't want to argue about it further but to me that is an industry fail.

pete_c · May 9, 2017

Understood.

Yes here the traditional autonomous with battery smoke detectors have triggered and are loud when present in the home. When it happened I asked here on the forum why the panel connected smokes did not trigger.

That said standard implementation of residential home smoke detectors is more common than commercial style alarm panel reporting to the CO smoke alarms.

Your exact questions have come up here on the forum many times over the years with other folks doing same as you (building new) with the same identical answers.

Have a look see in a search of the forum.

It becomes very difficult to bridge life and safety stuff with automation and even more so DIY life and safety and automation.

That is why here on Cocoontech you see many folks using the established Elk or the HAI combination panels which have been around a long time.

jeditekunum · May 9, 2017

pete_c said:
Yes here the traditional autonomous with battery smoke detectors have triggered and are loud when present in the home. When it happened I asked here on the forum why the panel connected smokes did not trigger.

Quality of the detector I imagine.

Consumer stuff is usually "good enough" by a tiny margin.

pete_c · May 9, 2017

Well too it is logical what you wrote about. That said though logical isn't cookie cutter for typical homes.

Like the science of engineering and what you know versus what exists in the real world of residential security and automation.

Alarm system for new Loxone setup

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