Apologies and another question

[mikefamig]

I'm attaching my rules for you guys to look at if you can find the time. Please let me know if you see any problems.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

I briefly looked through them and at first glance all seems OK to me. There are a number of timing based rules though.
 
The only one that I thought could be written differently was the last one, to close the door at sunset.
 
You currently have:

WHENEVER EVERY 15 MINUTES
      AND Garage Door 0 (Zn 4) IS NOT SECURE
      AND IT IS DARK OUTSIDE
            THEN ACTIVATE Garage Door 0 (Task 4)

 
I'd suggest:
WHENEVER SUNSET
      AND Garage Door 0 (Zn 4) IS NOT SECURE
            THEN ACTIVATE Garage Door 0 (Task 4)
 
It's just cleaner, and doesn't have to check the rule every 15 minutes - which is not necessary, when you only want to activate the rule once a day.

 

[mikefamig]

I briefly looked through them and at first glance all seems OK to me. There are a number of timing based rules though.
 
The only one that I thought could be written differently was the last one, to close the door at sunset.
 
You currently have:
 
I'd suggest:
WHENEVER SUNSET
      AND Garage Door 0 (Zn 4) IS NOT SECURE
            THEN ACTIVATE Garage Door 0 (Task 4)
 
It's just cleaner, and doesn't have to check the rule every 15 minutes - which is not necessary, when you only want to activate the rule once a day.

Your rule would only trigger at the moment it becomes sunset. My way I can open the door at night after sunset and it will close itself again.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

Sure. Your comment for the rule stated, "Close house overhead garage door at sunset"
 
I suppose that's not the case, or isn't needed with any of the other doors? As they have counters that correspond to the system being armed away. Is there a reason why they shouldn't follow the same logic?

 

[mikefamig]

Sure. Your comment for the rule stated, "Close house overhead garage door at sunset"
 
I suppose that's not the case, or isn't needed with any of the other doors? As they have counters that correspond to the system being armed away. Is there a reason why they shouldn't follow the same logic?

I believe that they do follow the same logic with the added complexity of a motion detector and armed/disarmed state.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

Just looked over them again and come to another suggestion - this time on the rules regarding the auto-arming as they work with your counter. 
 
Currently you have:

WHENEVER EVERY 5 MINUTES
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND Motion 1 (Counter 1) IS EQUAL TO 0
      AND THE TIME IS LATER THAN 30 MINUTES BEFORE SUNSET
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
WHENEVER EVERY 5 MINUTES
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND Motion 1 (Counter 1) IS EQUAL TO 0
      AND THE TIME IS EARLIER THAN AT SUNRISE
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY

 
Again, avoiding the need to check this every 5 minutes ... I'd suggest:
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS LATER THAN 30 MINUTES BEFORE SUNSET
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS EARLIER THAN AT SUNRISE
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY

 

[mikefamig]

Just looked over them again and come to another suggestion - this time on the rules regarding the auto-arming as they work with your counter. 
 
Currently you have:
 
Again, avoiding the need to check this every 5 minutes ... I'd suggest:
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS LATER THAN 30 MINUTES BEFORE SUNSET
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS EARLIER THAN AT SUNRISE
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY

Yeah I like that, it's slightly less complicated to get to the same end.

 

[drvnbysound]

I try to reduce the number of times the rules (and conditions) have to be checked. I prefer not to use the EVERY X duration, unless there is a compelling reason that something needs to be checked that often.
 
Depending on what you are trying to do, another way you can go about accomplishing duration based rules, is similar to what you did with the phantom outputs. Use something to trigger the output ON for X-duration. When that output turns off, then do X-task. Again, this alleviates Elk from having to check the conditions for that rule EVERY X-duration. Many times that's just not necessary to do, particularly for things that may only happen a few times a day or less.

 

[mikefamig]

I try to reduce the number of times the rules (and conditions) have to be checked. I prefer not to use the EVERY X duration, unless there is a compelling reason that something needs to be checked that often.
 
Depending on what you are trying to do, another way you can go about accomplishing duration based rules, is similar to what you did with the phantom outputs. Use something to trigger the output ON for X-duration. When that output turns off, then do X-task. Again, this alleviates Elk from having to check the conditions for that rule EVERY X-duration. Many times that's just not necessary to do, particularly for things that may only happen a few times a day or less.

I have found that some "when" conditions only exist as "and" conditions. This is why I used every "x" minutes, just so that I can add the "and". I know that I just typed a very confusing sentence but don't know how else to explain what I mean to say.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Just looked over them again and come to another suggestion - this time on the rules regarding the auto-arming as they work with your counter. 
 
Currently you have:
 
Again, avoiding the need to check this every 5 minutes ... I'd suggest:
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS LATER THAN 30 MINUTES BEFORE SUNSET
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
WHENEVER Motion 1 (Counter 1) CHANGES TO 0
      AND Garage (Area 2) ARM STATE = DISARMED
      AND THE TIME IS EARLIER THAN AT SUNRISE
            THEN ARM AREA(S) 2 TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY

I just looked at this again and I still like checking at time intervals. Your way I can open the garage door and go in and out without triggering the motion sensor and then the door will not go down again. This is due to the fact that I do not have full coverage with the motion sensors. The garage is almost 50' long and it is possible to go in and out of the third bay without triggering motion. I may add more motion detectors in the future but I currently only have them in a main area of the building. I can't imagine a thieve breaking in and not passing this area at some point.
 
Do you see anything in my rules that you think would cause the system to have errant chimes?
 
Mike

 

[mikefamig]

By the way, the system has run well for a week with no twa and no rules.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

Do you have contacts on the over head doors?

 

[mikefamig]

Do you have contacts on the over head doors?

Yes all doors and windows have sensors.

 

[drvnbysound]

I have logic on all my garage door rules that also include the state of the door; the output doesn't need to trigger if the door is already closed.
 
Or, my ARM STAY rule at night, will check to see if the garage door is closed, and if not, it will close it. ARM AWAY will close it when the exit delay ends (if still open).
 
I don't see anything that blatantly stands out that would cause the errant chime, but I don't know the inner workings of the Elk enough to say that with any certainty. With the time based rules, there can be occurrences when a SUNSET check and a 5min check happen at the SAME TIME. I don't know how resilient the Elk is at handling this. Obviously, I don't see it reported as being an issue on the forums, but that doesn't mean I accept that it couldn't ever happen.

 

[mikefamig]

I don't see anything that blatantly stands out that would cause the errant chime, but I don't know the inner workings of the Elk enough to say that with any certainty.

I don't think that any of us know the inner workings of the Elk, it is not information that is published publicly. Elk however does have that info and has seen my rules at their request. They did not report any problems with them.
 
They did however some weeks later request that I erase all rules and test. It was a great suggestion and I wish that I had thought of it myself.
 
Mike.