Building a new home in 2013. The future is WiFi, right?

[sic0048]

How this topic has gone off course!

I'll throw my 2 cents in just because I can. Going back to the OPs statement that wireless will soon rule the world, I have to disagree. I would definitely recommend running hard wires (or conduit if you like) to as many things as you can while building the structure. Hard wired is generally going to be cheaper than wireless (once hardware costs are factored in), and it is certainly more reliable.

For example, a hardwired alarm contact might run $4 while a wireless alarm contact might run $40. Add to this equation that the wireless contacts will have to have their batteries replaced once in a while and the convenience factor is certainly in the wired camp.

Network, video, audio, etc will all work better and faster (where speed is a consideration) over hardwired connections too.

I'm not suggesting that wireless is always bad. But when preplanning and during construction, I would certainly plan for hardwired connections as often as possible vs relying on wireless.

 

[Del91574]

Since this has wandered off topic completely, I'm not going to argue the points that were brought up with you Lou. It's not worth it, as it seems that you're going to be dismissive of any other viewpoint that is contrary to your own methodology and experience in your personal projects, whether you've pulled the cable yourself or specified how it should be done. In my case, since it seems any time I make a statement, it turns into an arguement that you feel like my view as a professional within this trade is off base or improper or simply incorrect based on what you have done in your personal construction projects.

I specifically stated network, audio and video should be termed and considered completely separate entities and cabling pulls, as their requirements differ significantly from a standard network pull and termination.

I pointed out construction details simply for the sake of providing a reference point as how a house in your locale is an entirely different beast compared to those built elsewhere, and what your local AHJ's allowed in your area is viewed as a huge faux pax in another areas of the country.

More power to you that your AHJ's are as permissive as they are for what you did. In the 15 states where I'm running projects in at the moment, nowhere are we allowed to have a penetration in any framing member, top or bottom plates where they extend between floors or interstitial space that isn't fire caulked. We're required to fire caulk, not draft stop, to form a effective fire barrier between floors, not contain conditioned air. All of the codes around here are either based on the IBC, ICC or BOCA, so it's not like it's a pipe dream or unique to certain areas of the country. As far as the AHJ's I'm dealing with, those conduits make a real nice chiminey in a wall, same with the open mud rings, their view is they introduce a large airflow into the wall in the event of a fire.

We install lots of cabling after the fact in many different projects, plenty of times with prime EC installed raceways, it's a common factor in the commercial and larger project residential world because of whose contract covers what wiring and portion of the work and what system is it affecting, such as LV controlling HV, very seldom is it addressed as a fire wall or code issue.

I'm only making the point regarding building codes and practices because I can speak for the territory I am in, the AHJ's are very well versed in the building codes, not a "yep, you have wire, wood and X amount of required Y installed". We have them commonly coming in with DB meters for residential fire alarm, wanting to see calculations for standby and then see the system function.

As I stated to you before Lou, more power to you that you are allowed to do X, Y and Z and it's ok with you and your AHJ's, but in my case, we're not allowed to do as we wish or see fit, no matter what the justification is to do such in our own mind.

 

[apostolakisl]

it seems that you're going to be dismissive of any other viewpoint that is contrary to your own methodology and experience in your personal projects,

Right back at ya.

Sorry if I interpreted your comments is being critical of my local, but I think your history would indicate that if you feel differently now, it is a change in your approach from times gone by.

Why dismissing conduit holes for the sake of fire caulk? What about plumbing, drain lines, vent lines, central vac, and 120vac wire? Does your state require they are all routed such that no top/bottom plate or other fire barrier is penetrated? I already know the answer, of course they penetrate. I would venture to guess that your inspectors will be just fine with the electrical conduit provided it is fire caulked along with everything else. Is there no such thing as a central vacuum in your area. Cause central vacs are every bit the same thing from a fire standpoint, except worse since they are much bigger holes and thinner walled PVC.

And if it is not allowed, how then are you putting the conduit that you use at your main AV locations? If you have a console in the middle of a wall, there is no way you aren't going out the top or bottom.

 

[Del91574]

Lou,

Since I'm not going to paraphrase what is contained within IBC, ICC or BOCA and what is enforced, ALL PENETRATIONS, all building systems, between floors are required to be fire caulked/blocked (and not using wood blocks only across the stud cavity, as that's what they were called also). with further caveats coming into play regarding the linear penetrations along the whole wall or if the penetration is installed in what would be considered a 1 hour or 2 hour fire wall. Keep in mind, I'm referencing common sense items, since you can't firestop a HVAC run or drain line, but it is not unheard of for them to require stopping if a linear run crosses 10' of wall.

In the states where our projects are presently, not referencing old work retrofit, they will not allow an open mud ring to be installed or the add-on sidecar rings if they are not enclosed like a normal electrical box. They also will not allow an open chase to go between floors or multiple floors without it being terminated at a box or other suitable electrical enclosure, fire caulk or duct seal shoved into the end of the pipe is not acceptable, as they want to maintain a semi-permanent way to break the floors, assuming the duct seal/caulk is removed and not replaced when retrofitting, and whoever runs the retrofit cabling "does the right thing" by bringing the cabling out of the box appropriately and reinstalls the cover on the box.

For example, they will not allow us to install a chase between a basement utility room and an attic space on the 3rd finished floor of a house, however they will allow us to install an enclosure on that floor and one in the basement and pipe between them. In the case of distributed video where a raceway was installed, that raceway goes from a box on the wall, such as an Arlington box, straight to another enclosure or trough installed in utility space, and then every installed box must have a cover installed.

The more restrictive areas will not allow us to install a riser, but they will allow us to install a midpoint enclosure in the riser run.

Keep in mind, I'm restricting this to residential, not a commercial application where a prime EC is installing raceways to facilitate cable installation by other trades crafts. Those usually are done using metal and either terminate to a box or they are sealed around the installed cabling prior to the AHJ allowing the ceiling to be closed and the job signed off on. Usually, it's been my experience, those sorts of projects don't have too many "extras" built into the installation anyways, and if there's a larger issue, then a lot of times they'll move to raised floors or slab installed raceways in addition to the drop tile ceilings to facilitate the cabling.

 

[apostolakisl]

BOTTOM LINE:
From the perspective of an individual building a house they plan on living in for at least the next 20 years, a person who loves to DIY this stuff, a person who is constantly playing around and changing this stuff, conduit is hard to beat. The person on this website will tend to be that way.

From the perspective of a commercial installer, they want to get a robust functional system in quickly and cheaply that accommodates the spec's set forth by the homeowner. That is what they have been hired to do. That is fine and is almost certainly going to produce a happy customer. In the future, the customer will call them back when they are ready to revamp or add to the system and they will expect to pay for it and no one will be upset.

So, as far as Delinstallations is concerned, I am sure you are doing it the best way. From the perspective of the DIY, gadget, HA kind of person that frequents this site, the perspective may be very different.


None of the stuff you outlined above can't be easily altered to work per the requirements you set forth.



As you can see from my photos, all of my exterior wall boxes were enclosed boxes (I didn't want to dig out the spray foam). You can just as easily do that for all of them in AHJ calls for it. You can also terminate the conduits in j-box's in the attic if your inspector requires both ends in boxes. This might add a buck per run in costs. We are still talking chump change. A house like mine would not cost more than $200 to put in 2-3 drops per room, plus a Saturday worth of work.

I think any property/life protection with such a requirement is nill, but whatever.

I totally don't get the horizontal run issue you speak of. Residential interior doors are not fire rated anywhere as far as I have ever heard. There are no fire breaks from room to room in the joist space and there is absolutely nothing in an attic space blocking horizontal spread of fire/smoke. The only consistently fire rated vertical surface would be between the garage and the house or between multi-dwelling uints. I understand some jurisdictions require fire rated furnace rooms, but I have not personally seen that in Texas, Ohio, Michigan, or Iowa (all places I have lived in the last 20 years). All of my homes in those places had non-fire rated furnace rooms (or even no room at all)

Not sure what the big deal is with fire caulk. No problem with that. All of mine were fire-caulked. I didn't personally do it. My contractor has one guy who come in last thing before inspection and squirted all the holes. To the best of my knowledge the fact that there were 40 or 50 extra holes to seal did not change the price, it's kind of one of those "per sf of house" things they charge for.

 

[Del91574]

Doors and openings do not normally have a fire rating compared to a wall, however wall construction with a cavity becomes a chimney and during a fire, the small openings and penetrations essentially become a blowtorch with the hot gasses to end up pushing the fire further up in the structure, faster. I can't seem to find any of the good videos that Hilti has on the subject.

While a dramatization, start about 2:20 in this video:http://www.youtube.c...u_1Fs8O4#t=139s


I don't have the linear run through a stud wall number in my head and which code cites it, but I want to say IBC and something like 15' linear horizontal through a stud wall before caulking. I'm not talking in a joist or rafter space, but inside a wall.

The majority of interior doors, though not listed, carry something like a 20 minute fire rating. Furnace rooms are required to be sheetrocked and taped on all exposed wood areas. Furnace areas in basements must have sheetrock covering their "footprint". We are not allowed to have any part of sprayfoam insulation left exposed, all must be covered with a wall/sheetrock, with the exception being an attic.

It's not that it can't be done as you did it Lou, however many AHJ's and municipalities are not as permissive as the ones that you may have experienced and they really do look closely at what's being done within a house and what is actually going inside the walls, not just a "yellow" cable here and "orange" there (which was done to help the inspectorate actually identify the cable since some inspectors would never look at what was being installed).

 

[apostolakisl]

I am not sure why all the talk about the fire caulking, it is a simple and routine thing to caulk around the conduit, or "non-conduited" wire, both represent the same scenario. So conduit, or wire, that part is all the same. The air space inside the conduit is a different thing and will not draft the same. It may be that your inspector makes you terminate each end in a closed box, and if so that is fine, it is only a minimal cost/effort to put a box at each end. I just personally think that this won't make a hill of beans of difference in a fire.

It may be true that it takes 20 minutes for a typical door to burn. But it isn't "fire rated". When code calls for a fire block, it must be rated, it must have a stamp on the side of the door that states just that, otherwise it is like nothing is there to the inspector.

The office I built 10 years ago had a gas water heater. Not only did the fire marshal not care to seal the room, he was quite concerned about the opposite. I had to open the room up to the rest of the office. He literally made me cut holes out and run ducting to connect that room to the attic space. The concern was with back drafting CO gas, not fire. I just moved out of that office 4 months ago or I would post a picture of the crazy ass thing he made me do.

And I guess you are talking horizontal runs through a stud wall where you have drilled holes stud after stud in a row. That doesn't come into play very often.

 

[tdroney]

I am a builder in so cal and have been interested in HA since 1984, when I built a active solar home controlled by a commodor 64 (remember those?). I have beenwaitingg for the technology to catch up with my desire to have reliable control, and i,'m still waiting. That said, I have built projects with varioussystems like crestron (winery) and control4 . I always try to do conduit runs wherever possible to address new technology, but it is hard to get my subs to agree, and to get the clients to pay for it.
I have used smurf flex in a few applications and wonder what anyone's opinion is on that. It is less expensive to run than PVC, if you include labor costs. I worry about the sweeps burning through.
And yes, soffits and chases need to be firestopped between floors and rooms in residential.

 

[Del91574]

I'm going to leave the discussion on methods and what is/isn't acceptable for an AHJ and how any parties perceive what is done or not done and the concerns for the AHJ's. I've said what I deal with and what is enforced and inspected here, as well as what is standard practice for at least 12 states I have projects on the books.

I'm not a fan of smurf or resigard personally, for that matter, even flex (greenfield). It has it's place, such as where normal conduit couldn't be installed, but that's about the only place I'd want to see it.

In the case of the plastic stuff, usually it's almost impossible to get a snake to really go through it, and usually, the guys putting it in make it look like a pretzel so you can't pull through it anyways. I think it's counter productive many times, the places I've seen it commonly run, it's undersized for the cables I end up having to pull through it, and the convolutes make it almost impossible to use lube to make it effective.

 

[Photon]

Maybe everything in our house will be WiFi, Bluetooth, or whatever someday, but I need lots of copper today. When we found our builder several years ago, he included TV and phone wiring to five or six locations as a basic part of the house cost. I wouldn't accept the quality of the LVDS installation I saw in a couple of his houses, so I wanted to do it myself. His best arguement against that was, "Who's going to pay for the delay if the inspector has a problem with the low voltage installation?" I said I'd settle for him to replace his standard drops with an empty box with smurf tube down to the basement on one or two outside walls in each room. He was happy with that and that it would be even cheaper than the standard drops. When I installed cat 5e and coax later, I didn't have to mess with the insulation or vapor barrier. Access for drops in inside walls was simple because of the unfinished basement.

Bottom line: The choice is based on the whims of your builder, his subs, and the AHJ in YOUR area, not what seasoned experts encounter in commercial construction in their areas. Personally, I'll push for empty conduit/boxes again next time. Before the drywall goes up, I'll probably drive a nail through the bottom plates into the basement in inside walls in areas where I am likely to add drops just to make it easier & faster to hit the center of the plate when I drill from below after I move in.