Building a new home in 2013. The future is WiFi, right?

[tmbrown97]

Just to play devil's advocate:

You don't need to terminate what's not connected. Leave it in a rack, can, trough or what have you until you need it.

In some states that's strictly against code - at least in a commercial setting. In fact, in CA that's not allowed - anything not terminated at both ends must be removed.

Conduit is the standard in office settings to the point where it is probably 99.99%. The conduit runs up the wall into the ceiling space where a single sweep 90 turns it horizontal above the drop ceiling.

Also varies by area - I see a lot of that in AZ, but I never see it in CA or WA unless specifically penetrating a fire break.

Which method you chose is matter of preference - I'd run conduit to TV locations and category or maybe even the mixed cable DEL suggests to the rest - but, the cost of the cables is a small price - the cost of the terminations is what'll really get you.

In my last house, I ran 3x Cat5e and 3x Coax to each wallplate; 2 wallplates per room on opposing walls. Infinite flexibility - since coax can be used as RCA and Cat5e can do most anything - but I didn't use much; in this house it was a pre-wired 2-story; best I can hope for is a single Cat5e per room and none at all in some key living spaces; but I've only bothered to run 2-3 more Cat5e wires - the rest of the places I made due with what was present and I'm surviving.

 

[apostolakisl]

@work2play;

What is it they are doing in CA or WA? Conduit home runs for LV just like HV?

Or are you saying they don't put in conduit at all and just loosely drop wires into walls? That works OK if it is an interior wall without insulation or fire blocks. Hmm, maybe I answered my question with the "fire block" comment.

But I do disagree with the cost of wire. If you put 50 drops in your house and each drop uses 40 feet of wire on average to home run, that's more than $2000 worth of wire. And I would argue that more than 90% of that wire will never ever be used. Maybe you say I'm crazy putting in so many drops, but I am very happy I did it. I have used 2 drops in the 4 years I have lived here that I never expected to use and put them in totally as "what the hell" extras. You tend not to do that when home running pricey wire versus a $2 piece of conduit.

Here is the thing, if you don't put that many drops in, and won't make that much difference. But if you want to cover your bases and you put multiple drops in every room, that's thousands of dollars of wire not including the terminations. And terminations aside from costing about $1-2 each take a lot of time.

 

[tmbrown97]

Like I said - it's a matter of preference. And I'm not sure what wire you run, but 50 drops of 40ft average - that's 2 boxes of Cat5e - but I would buy 3-4 boxes to make pulling easier; @ monoprice 1000' Cat6 is ~$105 (I get trade pricing from local supply houses) so that's $300-400ish in wire with plenty left over. That's not a deal killer; however like I said before, the terminations will get you... I used to use Leviton at a couple bucks a jack - but lets say you use Monoprice jacks at $1.50 each (rounding up) - 50 runs will be $75 in jacks plus maybe another $40-60 in patch panels - that's only about $550.

I don't think you're crazy for all the drops - I'm all for the ultimate in flexibility - but at the same time, it's way cleaner running everything once and having it all nicely dressed and tied up at nicely terminated patch panels... and when you want to do something "for the hell of it" - it's easier to grab a patch cable than have to run to the attic/basement/wherever and start pulling wires around. I'd love to have the flexibility, but probably for my own purposes only on top of existing wire.

You're right too about a lot of time - I thought I was being brilliant running 3000' of Cat5e and 3000' of Coax in the last house - I couldn't believe how many evenings it took to terminate them all, and I'm faster than a lot of people who do it every day...


As for how the commercial spaces are run around here - most of the time it's loose in the walls unless going through a fire break - then it's in conduit. Also most contractors don't know enough about when to or not to use plenum so they default to sticking their customers with the higher priced stuff to be safe - I've had to challenge them many times. AZ is the one local state where I noticed there was conduit for just about everything; but it's also the state where, when people move out, they basically remove everything and the next person to move in has to run all new wire. I talked to property owners and contractors and this was just a normal thing there, so I'm sure the conduit really helped.

 

[Del91574]

@ Work,

Is your AHJ citing a specific item in regards to not allowing spares? I know factually that all the building codes allow for that provision as long as both ends are tagged "future" or whatever wording that implies such. Any accessable obsolete cabling or abandoned cabling does need to be removed to the point it is no longer accessable. Is this specifically on commercial or residential, because I can see in a commercial enviroment where an AHJ may want cabling to be landed at a patch point to avoid the vomiting comm closets many of us are familiar with. It sounds to me like the local AHJ's in your area are misinterpreting the code as it is written and personally, I'd ask for clarification into their rationale.

I do see a lot of times, like you, barring the small businesses, that network and telcom cabling is viewed as a commodity in a space. The customer moves out, the next guy installs and certifies their own cabling, just nature of the beast.

@ Lou,

You might be referring to how you've seen some commercial spaces get put together, where typically there are at least 2-3 individual electrical trades besides the partition guys. Typically, most contracts cover the prime EC to install all raceways for the other trades that require such to their hardware and then the next biggest item is who does the fire alarm cabling/piping, as that is typically contained within the main print set as an engineered item not subject to interpretation or modification like a data wiring plan (I really want to have 3 outlets here instead of 2....). In new and gut construction, all penetrations must be sealed with a rated fire caulking compound or material that meets the same criteria as the base material, so wide open conduits without being sealed or terminated at junction boxes do not meet that criteria. Whether or not your local AHJ decides to ding you for them is another scenario.

As I've said before, in my locale, it varies by the local AHJ what they'll allow, some will allow a wide open (albeit sealed by fire caulking) chase from basement to attic, while others require it to go straight to a junction box on each end, and still others will not allow any riser to be left.

To install conduit in comparison to simply installing cabling to begin with, a couple of bucks for the conduit and fitting is going to really add up quickly. I just looked up quickly at an orange big box and 1" pvc, no fittings is $3 a length for 1" (I doubt you'd be able to pull anything worthwhile through smaller because of the ID) Figure a pair of straps per length, a box to terminate it at, then any fittings, I'm figuring conservative at around $.75/foot just to install the conduit, without considering labor. This is assuming the AHJ allows the Arlington mud rings that have conduit rings on them, not a sealed box. Again, this is for the grey sched 40 stuff, not the ENT or Resigard product line.

Looking into the monoprice cabling route, you've priced category cable at $100/M (no trade consideration) and RG6QS copper is about $65/.5M. My math ends up being at $.50/foot including mounting equipment.

Just for the sake of argument, I pulled the numbers from the first consumer site with pricing I could google. I didn't factor in trade or local supply house pricing, which is typically a decent amount less.

Let's start pricing a composite cable compared to the cost of individual cables, $230 for individual vs. $240 for a bulk composite cable. Very insignificant and honestly, the labor savings add up. Add fiber for $250 for an individual pull or $540 in a composite (little bit of a premium in cost on the composite). Now we're at $.48/ft for a standard composite or the worst case of $1.08/ft for composite and fiber. Compare that cost to the price of the conduit alone...it really doesn't make too much sense to not install cable unless you're truly nickel and diming a project. The overall material costs are truly insignificant.

I know the quick math is going to come out....I can have my house "roughed"for raceways using the figures above for $1500 vs. $2700, less terminations, which is basically double for intents and purposes, however the raceway method does not include the added expenses of the cabling, which even conservatively, is going to end up adding the same cabling costs, in addition to the cost of installing the raceway. It doesn't make economic sense to install conduits for anything but video monitor locations.

Yes, I know this is strictly academic and throwing numbers around and not considering X Y or Z, terminations, plates, etc. etc. but when considering not installing cabling vs. retrofitting afterwards, even with raceways, you're really not saving as much as one would tend to believe.

 

[apostolakisl]

Dell,

Consider doing it the way I did it.

10 foot piece of 3/4 grey conduit is big enough for most drops $1.72
sweep 90 $.77
box . . .don't count this, your putting in a box either way
strapping . . .maybe $.25 (but really shouldn't count this since your putting it in with wire too)
You have to drill holes in the top plate/bottom plate/fire block either way, so not counting that. Conduit needs a slightly bigger hole, but that really changes nothing.


These are Home depot prices for one-off, not bulk purchases.

To my main media locations I put in 1.5 inch, but that is only 3 drops.
I also ran some drops to the outside of the house with 1.5


That is all you need for the vast majority of drops. About $2.75 cents per drop. None of my drops cost more than $6.00

Now you wait until construction is complete, and you only pull the wires you actually have a present need for to each location. Mostly we are talking a single cat5 to about half of my drops. But some drops I have 2 or 3 cat5's and the media center ones have all kinds of stuff like coax, cat5, speaker wire, fiber, and hdmi. Also, since construction is complete, no worries about nails/screws through wires.

Now, I am free to be as fickle as I want. I can totally change things up. I can upgrade to cat6, or cat whatever. I can upgrade to the latest hdmi standard. I can add that subwoofer on the other side of the room behind the chair. And I can keep changing however many times I want into the future without ever screwing around with trying to fish wires into walls, or drill down through a fire block, or cut/patch sheetrock, or fight fiberglass twisting on my drill bit, screwing up my pricey foam insulation, or whatever. If you have composite wire at these locations, odds are it will suit you. But will it suit you 10 years from now when we need hypothetical cat7 wire to run the latest and greatest holographic tv?

It is just awesome having this versatility. And the ATT guy loves you too. I switched to uverse a couple months ago and the guy was thrilled at how easy the install was. We pulled a fresh cat6 from the demarc he just installed on the side of the house into my media closet in 10 minutes, then pulled fresh cat 6 to 3 tv locations in another 10 minutes. All without using a single tool.

 

[Del91574]

Lou, as I said, this was an academic exercise to put the cost of installng appropriate cabling in comparison to raceways.

It's also not including facts such as if leaving penetrations within the voids is allowable by your AHJ's. As you alluded to, in your locale, you get to do as you wish and it seems that there's a LOT of leeway of what is determined to be legal vs. what is actually stated within building codes, however it is true that the local AHJ can supercede what is contained within the codes. As Work has stated elsewhere, as well as I have, there are plenty of locales that will not allow workmanship and methods that you performed within your own structure while it was being built.

It sounds like you have a simple floorplan or possibly a single story on a slab with minimal construction details, so your method may suit the construction in your area, but it certainly doesn't here or a lot of areas in the country with multiple stories, basements, crawlspaces or multi-story on slab. I'm glad you're happy with your method and planning and it working out for you.

There are only a few locations where conduit would be benefitial and that would be monitor locations, that's the only place I can see the standard changing drastically. Distributing video over category cabling is always an issue and that's the nature of the cable, it's always going to be a compromise and that's a different discussion altogether. Using networking cable to distribute video introduces a whole new set of problems which should not be a design element, especially in new construction.

The point I am making is you're never going to exceed in practicality the cabling and fiber within a composite cable....not in your lifetime. The coax can be used for BNC, RCA, F, what have you. The category cable can be used for voice, data, analog video with baluns...whatever. Fiber, you're only going to be limited by equipment and FOC's. Never going to exceed the capabilities of that in your life.

I'm surprised that the Uverse guy would do video on category cabling, there was a mandate and also tech notes within the origanization to keep video on RG6QS instead of UTP wherever possible for the shielding factor, but UTP is recommended from the NID to the RG. The performance of the video when compared side by side on coax vs. UTP is the same on the STB in a lab situation, the only difference is what sort of interference gets introduced from the RG to the STB in real world applications.

 

[tmbrown97]

AT&T's UVerse is just rebranded Microsoft Mediaroom IPTV solution; The equipment I typically see involves a NID that only has RJ45 ports that are configured for TV or Internet or whatever the port is supposed to be.

To the earlier question about local AHJ's - I suppose I've never asked if I could mark cabling as "future" - but I know that when working on a commercial facility, if you don't want to remove the entire run, you leave the old wall jacks in place. Once you cut one end to clean things up, the wire has to come out all the way. Luckily for me, I'm a neat freak and can't tolerate extra unused cabling so I'm happy to see it go.

As for Category cabling - so many people are concerned with the latest and greatest and thing that they think they need Cat 6 or 7 for things even like simple gigabit... but the reality is you can run gigabit over Cat5 for at least 100ft (Not 5e - the really old stuff). Cat6 will be more than adequate for anything we encounter in the next 10-15 years.

 

[Del91574]

Sounds like the utilities in your area are being far more permissive with what they'll connect to for IPTV. Might just be due to the construction and rough in market out there compared to our retrofit market because of the age and renovation of the properties here. I know out here, they're very particular with the inside network and connections once they've proven their network up to the NID is "perfect" for the services.

Commercial and cabling is a double edged sword, however when doing fresh pulls, I've never seen any issue as long as the cabling is tagged on each end. Old or abandoned cable is always a pull/remove and the responsibility of the contractor/owner who is either abandoning it or transitioning away from it. I can't say I've really seen many people pull all the old cabling out of a house or rehab unless they're looking for scrap value, nor can I say I've had an AHJ ding me for having spare cabling installed, with the only exception being where a mud ring or stub out being covered by a blank plate and the tag end of the cable be bundled in a workmanlike manner, not strewn over the floor/closet/whatever.

I can't agree more with the whole category cabling rating and misunderstanding that people seem to be hung up on a number or letter on the cable vs. what hardware and capabilities they actually have or will have installed within the next 5-10 years, even longer. I can't tell you how many IT guys write Cat 6 for their spec, only to not have the cabling and hardware installed and certified to the spec, let alone the equipment downstream to even use it. Not many people will have Cat 6 or 6A rated equipment installed, let alone the patch panels and cables to support it. Factor in the distance limitations and bend radii that are allowable when running in the gigabit rating of the cable itself, and not certifying the network performance, now you're getting further and further away from what is realistic within most residential enviroments.

You can install the best cable and rating possible, but if you can't certify it to perform it's no different than putting a supercharger and z rated tires on your 1986 Yugo. Theoretically, it should go fast, but without the documentation to back it up, it's all hearsay.

 

[apostolakisl]

I've built one house and 2 offices in 2 different jurisdictions and did all the lv work myself and all 3 passed inspection.

My house is actually quite complex. The offices are quite simple with drop ceiling. The house has 2 sections joined at 45 degrees, it is 2 story on slab and still the vast majority of drops were not complex. I do have a 8/12 pitch roof with spray foam on the roof deck which opens things up a bunch.

If your inspector doesn't allow abandoned wire, then how is that different than wire that was never used in the first place? Essentially it is abandoned upon installation.

Also, I have a number of fiber runs. They are toslink. Do you terminate the fiber in those bundles onsite with toslink? Data terminators is no easy business either.

It is really amazingly simple and cheap to do conduit runs from wall space to attics. I buddied up several of my 120vac outlets with split boxes so I have possible LV access all over the place. Almost as universal as 120vac plugs themselves. It just opens up possibilities. And it is not expensive.

I did bid out the LV work in my office. All of them wanted to be the last ones in so their wires don't get screwed up. This all but requires conduit. It sounds as though you are putting all your wires in pre-sheetrock. Just another point of problem.

And since the conduit is initially empty. Nothing stops you from capping them should the inspector object. Even if you want to stay to true to code, you can put wire sealing caps later should you pull wire.

I know that coax works as "RCA" style wire with proper terminators. But consider what I did with the subwoofer. I only ran the coax up one wall, over the ceiling and down the opposite wall. I could do this and keep the run under 40 feet. If I had structured wire, it would have had to home runned to the main panel, spliced, then ran it back out. Running line level audio that distance would probably have failed. When everything home-runs, sometimes you exceed acceptable lengths.

I think if you saw it done, you would see that it is very versatile, simple to install, and inexpensive. You end up with only the wires you actually are using and have no worries about any future need.

And regarding U-verse. What work2play said. U-verse receivers run cat5 or 6 from the modem/router (gateway as they call it) to the receiver where it is de-coded to video. It is not a video feed through the cat wire. They even have a wifi version. It is not unlike watching HD video through a netflix device. It works quite well with full hd simultaneous to multiple receivers and can record a different channel at the same time. And all of that enters the house on a single twisted pair that is 2500 feet long to the main hub including simultaneous 18mbit internet.

 

[apostolakisl]

Some examples of some of my conduit running to combined HV/LV boxes.

Also, take lots of pictures before the sheet rock goes up. Lots and lots and lots every which way you can, then take some more.

You will notice a couple spots where one conduit serves two boxes where one box faces one room and the other box attached to the next stud faces the other room. It is no big deal to fish across that 8 inches or so from one box to the other since they are open LV boxes.

I also did some high/low boxes where one conduit dropped into an upper box designed to be in an upper cabinet and then continued down to a lower box designed to be in the lower cabinet.

 

[tmbrown97]

If I had structured wire, it would have had to home runned to the main panel, spliced, then ran it back out. Running line level audio that distance would probably have failed. When everything home-runs, sometimes you exceed acceptable lengths.

Going *WAY* off-topic here... but I did an experiment a couple years ago... at an office, they wanted to pipe music through all the hallways, reception area, and conference room for a christmas party, and it was a 1930's building - so no drop ceilings, etc... and no budget to work with; I made a handful of jumpers with rj45's on one end of Cat5 and 1/8" Stereo connectors soldered to the other end - so I went out the audio out from the conference room computer into a stereo splitter (so I could also go into a local amplifier) - back to the server room patch panel, into a couple more splitters, then back into the patch panels to the existing RJ45 jacks around the building where amplified speaker sets were plugged in (with female 1/8" stereo to RJ45 adapters). Some of the IT guys thought I was nuts - but it worked extremely well. I had tested it in my house before too - and even with the long distances and only running line level audio split several times, there was absolutely no noise introduced and volumes were perfectly adequate to be driven with the local amplified speakers. It was a fun waste of time - in fact, I just threw out those adapters last week when doing some cleaning!

 

[apostolakisl]

Going *WAY* off-topic here... but I did an experiment a couple years ago... at an office, they wanted to pipe music through all the hallways, reception area, and conference room for a christmas party, and it was a 1930's building - so no drop ceilings, etc... and no budget to work with; I made a handful of jumpers with rj45's on one end of Cat5 and 1/8" Stereo connectors soldered to the other end - so I went out the audio out from the conference room computer into a stereo splitter (so I could also go into a local amplifier) - back to the server room patch panel, into a couple more splitters, then back into the patch panels to the existing RJ45 jacks around the building where amplified speaker sets were plugged in (with female 1/8" stereo to RJ45 adapters). Some of the IT guys thought I was nuts - but it worked extremely well. I had tested it in my house before too - and even with the long distances and only running line level audio split several times, there was absolutely no noise introduced and volumes were perfectly adequate to be driven with the local amplified speakers. It was a fun waste of time - in fact, I just threw out those adapters last week when doing some cleaning!

So much for Monster Cable!

I ran line level from our church sanctuary building to our activities building. I used shielded, balanced audio cable. It was a 300 foot run through conduit underground between the buildings. It works fine, but I wouldn't call it hifi. Very slight noise and it would seem some fidelity drop. At the time I tried finding a digital solution, but they were out of budget. I could probably do it in digital today at a reasonable price.

Subwoofer noise is really annoying. I might have been able to home run, I don't know, but the chances of trouble keep going up with every extra foot.

 

[Del91574]

Lou, your pictures confirmed exactly what I said.

A simple single story house with no difficult construction details on a slab. A very straightforward house to install in. The method that you chose would not work anywhere I can think of here for anything but a single story ranch. The AHJ's around here also would not allow the mud rings you used to be connected to a wide open raceway to another story/floor, as it's directly contrary to every statement for draft/flame stopping that is contained within almost all the enforced building codes. I can't explain why your area chose to not follow or enforce what is contained clearly within various building codes. For that matter, I don't even see firestopping/fire caulk on the penetrations in the top plates.

I think people don't think about or forget that construction details and methods aren't the same across the entire US....For example, in Lou's area, I've seen construction details often of 2' OC framing and glorified aluminized cardboard used as sheathing, no plywood or OSB, where in other areas, that is definately not the case, where timber framing or baloon framing combined with stone foundations exist. Same goes for the old horse hair plaster on split wood lath....I'm sure there's many guys out there that have never seen, let alone heard of such a thing. Same goes for the guys that have never seen an adobe building wired....where you run the cabling in grooves in the mud and then plaster over them, or at best install conduit. There's Chicago and their wiring requirements....they don't allow NM cable, and barely allow AC/MC/BX cable to be installed....everything must be done with conduit, you can't even get NM in the big box stores there.

I'll give the OT example of during a rebuild in my area, the plumber had another guy who just moved north start roughing for hydronic baseboard heat in this house. The original plumber came back and asked why all the stubs were run in the outside wall. The other plumber said that's how he always did it back home. The local guy had to explain to the Southern guy that if you run water pipes up in an outside wall here it's very likey they'll freeze, so it should never be done.

 

[apostolakisl]

Dell,

It's a 2 story house split 4,000/2,500. 5 of the 6 photos are on the first floor cause I took the pictures in that order and then when I pulled them to put here the came up first so only the last is on the second floor. The second, third, and forth photos do not have attic directly over the top. But I was able to get to attic by going sideways through the ceiling since I could get to attic space at the ends of the house that is over first floor. But I could have just as easily kept going straight up to the second floor attic by drilling 2 additional holes and adding one more piece of $1.76 conduit. Probably a little more since it's about 22 feet from plug height on first floor to attic above second. All of my first floor ceiling that has second floor above has truss floors meaning that you can run wires/conduit any way you want (in addition to their tremendous dimensional stability, strength, and squeak free floor board attachments).

Believe it or not, we have structural engineers here too. As you can see, my house has a whole hell of a lot of wood in it. 2' on center is something I have only seen in out-buildings, and that was when I lived up north, never seen it here. But even so, if a structural engineer said it holds up, then it should hold up, which I suppose is why you got to go visit that 2' on center building, since it hasn't fallen down. We don't have snow load, but we do have heavy cement tile roofs and occasionally heavy winds. Some of the LVL's they put in my house are amazing.

We can run water in outside walls here. It's OK provided you insulate. But except for the kitchen sink, I don't have any others as I still prefer to keep them on inside walls. I also refused to let them put water lines in the slab. They all come down from above. Sewer only in the slab. But I bet you can put water lines on outside walls up north too if you use spray foam and keep them at least 1.5 off the outside wall and keep your house heated to at least 60.

Just FYI. There is an adobe building down the street from me (it may not technically be adobe, but it is built out of compressed straw). It is a cool building (one world theater, you can google it), I knew the guy who built it and saw some of the way they did that stuff. Also, I considered using ICF construction but decided it just didn't make sense. But a neighbor did do it and I watched them route out all the wire grooves. Actually an amazingly easy thing to do and you get to go any way you want. Easy to put conduit in too.

Oh, and Chicago. Lots of family and friends there, lived real nearby for a few years. It is union stuff. Not logic. Like at Mccormick place. Until recently you needed an electrician plug in your extension cord for a vendor booth, and a carpenter to set up your display (like a table and backdrop).

But in short, it matters not whether you have 2' on center or 16" on center, conduit fits between both. And if you have saran wrap for sheathing or 1 inch plywood, conduit still fits between the studs. And if your floor is chincy 1/2 inch OSB or 1.25 inch composite material, a good drill bit will go through either. Conduits can tack up 2 floors in the wall, or 1 floor, just costs a couple dollars extra.

 

[JimS]

What Lou did seems just about like what is done here in the midwest and what is done where I was out west (although things may have changed since I was there). I had no issues with open conduits into the attic. There was no fire blocking requirement - just top and bottom plates. And no fire caulking for penetrations between floors. I had them air sealed for the outside of the conditioned space but that was my choice not a requirement. They did require a fire wall between the garage and house but a bit heavier drywall met that requirement. I put in a pull down attic stair and asked about that since it is thin wood. They said that was an allowed exception which seemed a bit crazy to me but that was that.

When I saw the pictures I said to myself he's got "plenty of wood" as that is exactly what the inspector said to me during one of my inspections. I added some additional bracing, checked some of the load calculations myself and went beyond what was required on things.

I am surprised that they don't require more substantial connection here between floors (the walls of different floors that is) and between the roof trusses and the rest of the structure. We are in tornado alley after all. And there are things that can be done for very little to no cost that are big improvements. I did build a tornado shelter/safe room under the porch for about what it would have cost to fill the foundation with gravel, which was the other option.

Guess I have wandered off topic....point is that what Lou has done is allowed in LOTS of places. Could he do more safety/fire prevention things? Yes, but you can always do a bit more.