Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[TonyStewart]

Somehow this topic took a turn and I missed it....

The problem, as stated, is that the 4-button aux switch is overall deplored and has to have its own gang box, right? I agree with all that.

Then it was stated that you could use any "competitors" scene switch, so long as it was the contact closure type.

Did I miss somewhere that it was required to use an Elk to make all this work?

I guess the other thing I'm missing is how a scene switch (typically 1 button) can be used in place of the 4-button aux panel, which uses 2 buttons per light (one for up, one for down).

Or maybe I should just crawl back into my hole.....


On a brighter note, I've declared this weekend that I'm going to attempt to run our first set of switches. Tony, I see from the diagrams and what you said that in order to find out which switch really has the hot coming in (and which just runs to the light), you disconnect the wires and then see which one is still hot. Of course, that means turning the power back on and checking live disconnected wires. I have one of those little voltage sensors, so I won't be sticking my fingers in there, but I just wanted to confirm that that is what you meant, as it seems a little on the risky side.

The problem with open architecture stuff is that there is an almost limitless number of ways to configure devices. So, confusion is common.

A 4 button ALC aux is designed to offer 3-way operation for up to 4 each ALC switches. With each independant aux wired directly to the ALC it is intended to mate with, with one on and one off for each ALC.

But... you can also use it for scene switches. In this mode if offers 8 total contact closures. When used in this manner it does not wire to the ALC switch, instead it wires to a zone input on the Omni or the M1. When used as zone inputs the slower response times of the zone inputs must be considered. When used as 4 total ALC aux inputs, the response time is better as the ALC switch expects a shorter press of the button (a bump).

Yes, you can use it for both applications. And you can even mix and match on the same 4 way aux. For example, 2 of the sets of buttons can wire directly to a matching ALC and the other two sets can be used as zone inputs to act as scene or mode triggers.

And yes you can use any two buttons from any manufacturer's contact closure type switch for your Aux or a scene switch (zone input). On ebutton for on, one button for off! As long as you remember the response time of the zone inputs.

As for the live wires, safety is first. So if in doubt turn off all breakers, and use voltmeter. But remember this, DIY'ers are a fearless crew and as such tend to "burn and learn" more than typical. With low voltage, you can only let the smoke out and ruin the device, with High voltage, you are letting your own smoke out! And it does NOT GO BACK IN!

A licensed electrician is your best bet for safety (at least I hope your electrcian is safe).

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

GotoMeeting will not do Live Video very well, but if you're just presenting slides this woudl work just fine. It has a conference number to call into or you can use PC headset/mic. There some chat window as well.

Tony: When you control ALC from an ELK can the ELK be aware of the current status of each light and can you use rules based on that? I understand ELK can send on/Off/Bringht/Dim commands to the light, but i would like to to take certain actions when switches are locally turned on.

For exampole: IF bathroom light (ALC dimmer) is on for 5 minutes then turn fan on (ALC relay) and run untill 5 minutes after light is off.

The ELK M1XSP documentation only seems to desribe how the ELK can control the lights (using outputs) but not the other way.

AAAAAAHHHHH! A test!

Rule 1
WHENEVER Bathroom (A1) IS TURNED ON ----- Use X10 equivalent of the ALC address
THEN SET Bath Lite (Counter01) to 300 --------- Here is your first 5 minutes

Rule 2
WHENEVER Bath Lite (Counter01) CHANGES TO 0 ------------ Counter counts down for 5 minutes
and Bathroom is on ------------------ Someone is still in the bathroom
THEN TURN Bath Aroma Fan (A2) ON ------- Time for the fan to turn on!

Rule 3
WHENEVER Bathroom (A1) is TURNED OFF ------------ User has left the room
AND Bath Aroma Fan (A2) is on ------- Still need fan for aroma removal (better leave fan on because the Mrs. comes in next!)
THEN SET Bath Fan Lt (Counter 2) to 300 ------------ Here is your second 5 minute timer

******* Rule 3 requires two TRUE triggers. It only fires (means to issue the command) after the first 5 minutes and if the aroma fan is on.

Rule 4
WHENEVER Bath Fan Lt (Counter2) Changes to 0 ---------------- Second five minute timer expired.
THEN TURN Bath Aroma Fan (A2) OFF --------------- That's it.

I did not test this, but I believe it will work as drawn. And there are a always number of other ways to do the same event.

Now it’s my turn for a test………

What happens when a first user leaves at 650 seconds and a second user comes into the room a 700 seconds? Will the lights and fan behave well for the second user????

PS - I used 600 seconds in the M1 (10 Minutes) graphic

 

[beelzerob]

So, from a non-elk perspective, I could use a contact closure wired into one of the digital inputs on an I/O box, to tell CQC that a button was pressed, and then to do whatever I wanted it to do. So that'd be another way to control the lights via a "scene switch", correct?

Do you happen to have any examples of "competitors" scene switches that are the simple contact type?

Next question....with the relays, dimmers, AND aux switches, there is an up/down/common set of wires to be connected, correct? Is that common really common? Or does every set of aux switches require their own common? (so if I have the set of 4 aux buttons, would that require 9 wires or 12?)

I think I'm going to be stuck using the addressable scene switch from OnQ, because I don't believe I ran enough CAT5 to switches to allow for multi aux buttons. A major oversight on my part... I ran a single run of Cat5 past many switches...which is fine if they're all addressable, but begins to get into trouble fast with more than 2 aux switches on it. (assuming the common can be shared).

 

[TonyStewart]

So, from a non-elk perspective, I could use a contact closure wired into one of the digital inputs on an I/O box, to tell CQC that a button was pressed, and then to do whatever I wanted it to do. So that'd be another way to control the lights via a "scene switch", correct?

Do you happen to have any examples of "competitors" scene switches that are the simple contact type?

Next question....with the relays, dimmers, AND aux switches, there is an up/down/common set of wires to be connected, correct? Is that common really common? Or does every set of aux switches require their own common? (so if I have the set of 4 aux buttons, would that require 9 wires or 12?)

I think I'm going to be stuck using the addressable scene switch from OnQ, because I don't believe I ran enough CAT5 to switches to allow for multi aux buttons. A major oversight on my part... I ran a single run of Cat5 past many switches...which is fine if they're all addressable, but begins to get into trouble fast with more than 2 aux switches on it. (assuming the common can be shared).

Yes a non Elk I/O box will accept inputs for CQC and then activate scenes etc.

The only contact closure scene switch besides the Quad Aux from OnQ that I am aware of are ones from Litetouch (Special Made) and Centralyte. The Litetouch and the centralyte both use a shared common.

The OnQ Quad Aux does not use a shared common. When used as a quad aux it would take 12 conductors.

TS

 

[felixrosbergen]

So, from a non-elk perspective, I could use a contact closure wired into one of the digital inputs on an I/O box, to tell CQC that a button was pressed, and then to do whatever I wanted it to do. So that'd be another way to control the lights via a "scene switch", correct?

Do you happen to have any examples of "competitors" scene switches that are the simple contact type?

Next question....with the relays, dimmers, AND aux switches, there is an up/down/common set of wires to be connected, correct? Is that common really common? Or does every set of aux switches require their own common? (so if I have the set of 4 aux buttons, would that require 9 wires or 12?)

I think I'm going to be stuck using the addressable scene switch from OnQ, because I don't believe I ran enough CAT5 to switches to allow for multi aux buttons. A major oversight on my part... I ran a single run of Cat5 past many switches...which is fine if they're all addressable, but begins to get into trouble fast with more than 2 aux switches on it. (assuming the common can be shared).

Yes a non Elk I/O box will accept inputs for CQC and then activate scenes etc.

The only contact closure scene switch besides the Quad Aux from OnQ that I am aware of are ones from Litetouch (Special Made) and Centralyte. The Litetouch and the centralyte both use a shared common.

The OnQ Quad Aux does not use a shared common. When used as a quad aux it would take 12 conductors.

TS

If the quad aux is used with ALC hubs can you tie all the commons together?

Based on your example for the bathroom fan i'm concluding that the ELK can notice when a light switch is activated. The rules will need some work...never knew keeping the armoa out of the bathroom would take that many rules..

 

[charliebarns]

... Do you have a link to the Litetouch scene switch that can be special ordered?

CB

Hey Tony do you have a link? Also, why do standard OnQ switches not also have a delay when used with an MI or an OPII?

CB

 

[AceCannon]

Thanks tony I think I understand a bit better. You basically use the brains of the Elk or Omni to detect a contact closure one any scene switch that is of a contact closure type. the problem being instead of pressing the button momentarily you would have to hold the button for a little longer in order for the system to register the closure. Do you have a link to the Litetouch scene switch that can be special ordered?

Some are using an Elk M1 zone for their doorbell and have stated in these forums to set the zone as a "fast loop response" for that task. I hypothesize that this setting may obviate the "long press" concern for dry-contact switches. Opinions or experiences?

 

[TonyStewart]

So, from a non-elk perspective, I could use a contact closure wired into one of the digital inputs on an I/O box, to tell CQC that a button was pressed, and then to do whatever I wanted it to do. So that'd be another way to control the lights via a "scene switch", correct?

Do you happen to have any examples of "competitors" scene switches that are the simple contact type?

Next question....with the relays, dimmers, AND aux switches, there is an up/down/common set of wires to be connected, correct? Is that common really common? Or does every set of aux switches require their own common? (so if I have the set of 4 aux buttons, would that require 9 wires or 12?)

I think I'm going to be stuck using the addressable scene switch from OnQ, because I don't believe I ran enough CAT5 to switches to allow for multi aux buttons. A major oversight on my part... I ran a single run of Cat5 past many switches...which is fine if they're all addressable, but begins to get into trouble fast with more than 2 aux switches on it. (assuming the common can be shared).

Yes a non Elk I/O box will accept inputs for CQC and then activate scenes etc.

The only contact closure scene switch besides the Quad Aux from OnQ that I am aware of are ones from Litetouch (Special Made) and Centralyte. The Litetouch and the centralyte both use a shared common.

The OnQ Quad Aux does not use a shared common. When used as a quad aux it would take 12 conductors.

TS

If the quad aux is used with ALC hubs can you tie all the commons together?

Based on your example for the bathroom fan i'm concluding that the ELK can notice when a light switch is activated. The rules will need some work...never knew keeping the armoa out of the bathroom would take that many rules..

I say no tieing auxes together. But, I will take an ohmeter, check it out and advise later.

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Thanks tony I think I understand a bit better. You basically use the brains of the Elk or Omni to detect a contact closure one any scene switch that is of a contact closure type. the problem being instead of pressing the button momentarily you would have to hold the button for a little longer in order for the system to register the closure. Do you have a link to the Litetouch scene switch that can be special ordered?

Some are using an Elk M1 zone for their doorbell and have stated in these forums to set the zone as a "fast loop response" for that task. I hypothesize that this setting may obviate the "long press" concern for dry-contact switches. Opinions or experiences?

At fastest loop response it still takes a longer time than some are comfortable with.

But the M1 allows you to change loop response one zone at a time. While you would not want fast loop response on most security sensors, it helps when using zones as contact closure triggers.

 

[TonyStewart]

... Do you have a link to the Litetouch scene switch that can be special ordered?

CB

Hey Tony do you have a link? Also, why do standard OnQ switches not also have a delay when used with an MI or an OPII?

CB

Call me about where to order the Litetouch switches 864-663-0011

I assume when you say standard switches you are referring to the Aux switches. If so, they are normally wired to the ALC dimmer or ALC relay and not directly to a zone on an M1 or an Omni. If they were wired to a zone, then they would have the same delay as any contact closure input.

Any ALC on the two wire polling loop has virtually an instant operation.

God Bless

 

[rosenqui]

I'm not sure if this is an option for your situation, but take a look at the RCS KPL7 keypad. I have a number of RCS KPL7 keypads serving as scene switches in my setup. With the old Aegis-2000 variation of the OmniPro that I went with back in 2000, that was the recommended way to do things. I don't think the ALC scene switches or 4-switch auxiliaries existed at the time.

The KPL7 switches are low voltage (RS-485) and you can connect several of them together in daisy-chain fashion.

You need a controller with an RS-485 serial port, and you have to write some programming for every single button press, but they work pretty well and the response time is mainly dependent on the speed of your controller and lighting. Each of the 7 buttons has an LED beside it that you can program to be on, off, or flashing. I use the flashing mode for things like open garage doors that I want to draw attention to, or for the "fireplace on for 30 minutes" buttons.

The downside is that there are just 7 individual buttons, not 7 on and 7 off buttons, and the buttons are pretty small. If you want to make one of the buttons a toggle for a certain light you have to handle that via additional controller programming. The label area is a decent size, but it's not backlit, so in the dark you'll have to know which of the 7 buttons you need to press. The switch is also a little taller and slimmer than a typical light switch, so it would probably look out of place in a gang or even close to a normal switch. In my case I put some of the load-controlling switches in closets and pantries and then put one KPL7 on the wall to control things. That made for a much better look than having lots of 3 and 4-gang banks of switches.

HAI added native KPL7 support to the Omni firmware about a year ago, which makes programming them with an Omni much simpler. The Aegis version of the OmniPro had that from day 1, but the HAI firmware didn't.


As for my bathroom fans, ours are all vented outside individually - no tie-in to the HRV or anything like that, so they just need a regular 120V switch. I'm quite fond of the low-tech approach I went with: Leviton Timer Switches. No programming required, and they just work. I also have timer switches on things like our pantry and some closets where you would never want the light to stay on indefinitely. I like the fact that it's impossible for someone to leave any of those lights on accidentally.

 

[TonyStewart]

I'm not sure if this is an option for your situation, but take a look at the RCS KPL7 keypad. I have a number of RCS KPL7 keypads serving as scene switches in my setup. With the old Aegis-2000 variation of the OmniPro that I went with back in 2000, that was the recommended way to do things. I don't think the ALC scene switches or 4-switch auxiliaries existed at the time.

The KPL7 switches are low voltage (RS-485) and you can connect several of them together in daisy-chain fashion.

You need a controller with an RS-485 serial port, and you have to write some programming for every single button press, but they work pretty well and the response time is mainly dependent on the speed of your controller and lighting. Each of the 7 buttons has an LED beside it that you can program to be on, off, or flashing. I use the flashing mode for things like open garage doors that I want to draw attention to, or for the "fireplace on for 30 minutes" buttons.

The downside is that there are just 7 individual buttons, not 7 on and 7 off buttons, and the buttons are pretty small. If you want to make one of the buttons a toggle for a certain light you have to handle that via additional controller programming. The label area is a decent size, but it's not backlit, so in the dark you'll have to know which of the 7 buttons you need to press. The switch is also a little taller and slimmer than a typical light switch, so it would probably look out of place in a gang or even close to a normal switch. In my case I put some of the load-controlling switches in closets and pantries and then put one KPL7 on the wall to control things. That made for a much better look than having lots of 3 and 4-gang banks of switches.

HAI added native KPL7 support to the Omni firmware about a year ago, which makes programming them with an Omni much simpler. The Aegis version of the OmniPro had that from day 1, but the HAI firmware didn't.


As for my bathroom fans, ours are all vented outside individually - no tie-in to the HRV or anything like that, so they just need a regular 120V switch. I'm quite fond of the low-tech approach I went with: Leviton Timer Switches. No programming required, and they just work. I also have timer switches on things like our pantry and some closets where you would never want the light to stay on indefinitely. I like the fact that it's impossible for someone to leave any of those lights on accidentally.

Excellent input. We too have had good luck with the RCS KPL7. One thing to consider is the "messaging" limits on the HAI and rule space limits on the Elk M1. Since serial strings are required, both controllers must send and receive a large number of messages to and from the KPL7. There is a limit on the Omni Pro II of 128 total messages (64 total with the Omni II). If you want to use several KPL7 stations and want to get fancy with button flashes etc. you could easily run out of messages (voice of experience here). And don't forget other uses for messages like sending text to the keypad, phoning voice messages and interfacing with other serial devices. 128 messages go pretty fast if you are creative.

A similiar thing is true with the M1. Serial messaging uses a substantial amount of available rule percentage. As a rule of thumb, an average serial string can use 1-2% of available rule space.

Still, this is a good choice, especially if you only install a few.

Of course, if you are using something like CQC and dealing with the controllers over thier bus, then message limits are reduced or eliminated.

 

[TonyStewart]

So, from a non-elk perspective, I could use a contact closure wired into one of the digital inputs on an I/O box, to tell CQC that a button was pressed, and then to do whatever I wanted it to do. So that'd be another way to control the lights via a "scene switch", correct?

Do you happen to have any examples of "competitors" scene switches that are the simple contact type?

Next question....with the relays, dimmers, AND aux switches, there is an up/down/common set of wires to be connected, correct? Is that common really common? Or does every set of aux switches require their own common? (so if I have the set of 4 aux buttons, would that require 9 wires or 12?)

I think I'm going to be stuck using the addressable scene switch from OnQ, because I don't believe I ran enough CAT5 to switches to allow for multi aux buttons. A major oversight on my part... I ran a single run of Cat5 past many switches...which is fine if they're all addressable, but begins to get into trouble fast with more than 2 aux switches on it. (assuming the common can be shared).

Yes a non Elk I/O box will accept inputs for CQC and then activate scenes etc.

The only contact closure scene switch besides the Quad Aux from OnQ that I am aware of are ones from Litetouch (Special Made) and Centralyte. The Litetouch and the centralyte both use a shared common.

The OnQ Quad Aux does not use a shared common. When used as a quad aux it would take 12 conductors.

TS

If the quad aux is used with ALC hubs can you tie all the commons together?

Based on your example for the bathroom fan i'm concluding that the ELK can notice when a light switch is activated. The rules will need some work...never knew keeping the armoa out of the bathroom would take that many rules..

I say no tieing auxes together. But, I will take an ohmeter, check it out and advise later.

TS

I just read a Quad Aux with an Ohmmeter. The commons are NOT shared. As such it will take 12 total conductors to use all of them.

God Bless
TS

 

[beelzerob]

Dangit. I got cheap and ran a single cat5 run to cover multiple switches (where convenient). I shoulda run a cat5 per switch just to have spare. *shrug*.

Oh well, there's always the 4 button scene switch. It'll sit on the bus like all the others, and I can program the buttons to control individual lights just like the aux switches woulda.

 

[TonyStewart]

Thanks tony I think I understand a bit better. You basically use the brains of the Elk or Omni to detect a contact closure one any scene switch that is of a contact closure type. the problem being instead of pressing the button momentarily you would have to hold the button for a little longer in order for the system to register the closure. Do you have a link to the Litetouch scene switch that can be special ordered?

Some are using an Elk M1 zone for their doorbell and have stated in these forums to set the zone as a "fast loop response" for that task. I hypothesize that this setting may obviate the "long press" concern for dry-contact switches. Opinions or experiences?

Did you know that Elk has an excellent part to use when interfacing with doorbells? When you use their Elk-930, the light on the doorbell button still burns. And you get two doorbell circuits and a telephone ring detector as well.