HST Releases PRO-100 Home Automation Controller
- Thread starter electron
- Start date
Ski,
XPembedded is more reliable because it takes the homeowner out of the equation. In real world installs, this is a major instability issue. The kid puts their games on the server, messes with settings, kills critical apps, etc.
The other part is you hit the ON button and it does what it is suppose to do. It moves a PC to being closer to being an appliance. The ELK is an example of this - plug it in and it does what it is suppose to do. No more, no less.
When you build an XPe load, you also take out (actually don't put in) a lot of the software bloat that XPPro has. These are services running that a customer might want (most don't) to use. The XPe is designed for single purpose so it is easier to figure out what you don't need. This makes boot time faster and less conflicting things for applications to worry about.
XPe also makes it easier for a company like HST to build a load that is known to work. It is a controlled environment. I suspect this is the largest contributor to HS2 instability issues. True every few builds there have been some problems (I had the same error message as I think you did with build 14 which seems to be fixed with a later beta), but overall my system continues to do what it needs to do. Sometimes with some error messages, but the lights keep coming on and off, etc.
XPembedded is more reliable because it takes the homeowner out of the equation. In real world installs, this is a major instability issue. The kid puts their games on the server, messes with settings, kills critical apps, etc.
The other part is you hit the ON button and it does what it is suppose to do. It moves a PC to being closer to being an appliance. The ELK is an example of this - plug it in and it does what it is suppose to do. No more, no less.
When you build an XPe load, you also take out (actually don't put in) a lot of the software bloat that XPPro has. These are services running that a customer might want (most don't) to use. The XPe is designed for single purpose so it is easier to figure out what you don't need. This makes boot time faster and less conflicting things for applications to worry about.
XPe also makes it easier for a company like HST to build a load that is known to work. It is a controlled environment. I suspect this is the largest contributor to HS2 instability issues. True every few builds there have been some problems (I had the same error message as I think you did with build 14 which seems to be fixed with a later beta), but overall my system continues to do what it needs to do. Sometimes with some error messages, but the lights keep coming on and off, etc.
No, I just think you aren't seeing the bigger picture. Sure Homeseer has its flaws, but running the application in a controlled environment, which people won't/can't use as their personal workstation, or add any other software which might create conflicts will help a lot. Microsoft has said several times that most of the hardware related crashes are caused by bad 3rd party drivers, not bad MS code.
This is the same deal here, HST can guarantee that the hardware is stable by using a certain set of hardware drivers, since every PRO-100 uses the same hardware. Now they can work on the software side to make sure things run smooth (and they will get it to work right, since I can't imagine them spending so much time and money on this unit, and announce its availability if it wasn't stable, especially in the installer market). Once they have Homeseer running on this PRO-100 without any issues, it should run fine on all the other PRO-100 machines as well.
The main problem with current state of Homeseer is that everyone uses a different PC configuration, which makes it extremely hard to troubleshoot things since you can't always replicate the error. Even if you can replicate the error, it doesn't mean that the fix will work on all PC configurations.
This is the same reason why Microsoft insists on selling Windows Media Center with certain machines through manufactures, and doesn't really want you to buy just the OS on your own and build your own, since most people run into problems, and will blame Microsoft, eventho it isn't their fault.
I am not defending HST here, I am just trying to explain why running HS on XPe can make a huge difference. So many devices run some sort of embedded version of Windows now (ATM's, Xbox, etc.), because it really does make a difference.
edit: appearantly David hit submit sooner than I did, but he makes the same point.
This is the same deal here, HST can guarantee that the hardware is stable by using a certain set of hardware drivers, since every PRO-100 uses the same hardware. Now they can work on the software side to make sure things run smooth (and they will get it to work right, since I can't imagine them spending so much time and money on this unit, and announce its availability if it wasn't stable, especially in the installer market). Once they have Homeseer running on this PRO-100 without any issues, it should run fine on all the other PRO-100 machines as well.
The main problem with current state of Homeseer is that everyone uses a different PC configuration, which makes it extremely hard to troubleshoot things since you can't always replicate the error. Even if you can replicate the error, it doesn't mean that the fix will work on all PC configurations.
This is the same reason why Microsoft insists on selling Windows Media Center with certain machines through manufactures, and doesn't really want you to buy just the OS on your own and build your own, since most people run into problems, and will blame Microsoft, eventho it isn't their fault.
I am not defending HST here, I am just trying to explain why running HS on XPe can make a huge difference. So many devices run some sort of embedded version of Windows now (ATM's, Xbox, etc.), because it really does make a difference.
edit: appearantly David hit submit sooner than I did, but he makes the same point.
Steve
Senior Member
Thats why in our large company we have a Systems Integration team. They produce a 'standard' PC image which is locked down and all new software is thoroughly tested before deployment. Same idea as an embedded system. I've seen many times seemingly benign changes or small applications cause many issues - many times even MS's own! Sometimes it's a simple DLL conflict. App A uses version X.0 of a dll and then you install App B with version X.1 of the same dll. Sometimes the original App A starts misbehaving and it is very difficult to know why without using expensive tools to track registry, system and file changes for every single thing you install on a pc.
Bottom line an app with bugs just needs to be fixed, but there is a huge benefit and increase in reliability and supportability with a locked system such as an embedded one.
Bottom line an app with bugs just needs to be fixed, but there is a huge benefit and increase in reliability and supportability with a locked system such as an embedded one.
justonemore
Active Member
Lets just hope that HST sometime down the road says: " Hell! all seem to be running fine in OUR CONTROLLED APPLIANCE. Maybe we should just shit-can the whole idea of a software that these inferior users can screw up with their damn personal applications and software. All say I to kabosh the software side and stick to this highly expensive Appliance!"
Now wouldn't that really SUCK for us all. Just remember this thread if (and hopefully never does) this happens.
But what do I know. I'm just a dumb user with fat fingers. :unsure:
Now wouldn't that really SUCK for us all. Just remember this thread if (and hopefully never does) this happens.
But what do I know. I'm just a dumb user with fat fingers. :unsure:
justonemore
Active Member
Gee.... Ya think Rupp?
Sorry. But I like to control things myself.
Another reason to explore additional avenues!
Sorry. But I like to control things myself.
Another reason to explore additional avenues!
justonemore
Active Member
I would love to say that I am shocked by this recent bit of typical hs/Rupp news, but I can't.
Saw it coming
Saw it coming
Dean Roddey
Senior Member
If you build your system using very high level languages and tools and OS features, then you are going to be very sensitive to system configuration, that is of course true. We get our stability by doing the opposite. It requires a lot more development horse power, i.e. basically have our own '.Net Framework', except it's the .Dean Framework. So we just don't have anything like the kinds of problems in that respect that HS does.
And, as I argued in many previous threads (often to cat calls :unsure
, we limit access to the machine by plugins (drivers in our parlance), by providing our own specialized language, so that it's very difficult for such things to do any damage. As was mentioned, what's the point is bragging about your broad device support if you can't count on it? I don't blame HS for taking that approach at the time, since it probably was the only reaaonable one, but times and circumstances change and yesterdays reasonable decision can become today's lead weight.
But anyway, Skibum's point is legitimate. If he can't get it to run on a fresh and stable install of XP that he sets up and leaves alone, then eXP wouldn't make any difference because he's already not messing with the OS anyway. So there are two different issues here.
- One is that it does allow for a less tamperable system that won't be twiddled with by the naive user. And there are certainly benefits to be had there, but the benefits are to the company in terms of reduced support and to the 'naive' user who gets a pre-fab system, not to the DIY users who populate this board.
- The other is the basic stability of the application itself and of the device support required to make it actually able to do the job required. In this case, eXP vs. XP is irrelevant. That's the issue that skibum is addressing. You can argue whether he's right or wrong about that basic stability, but if he is right, then eXP isn't going to help.
And, as I argued in many previous threads (often to cat calls :unsure
, we limit access to the machine by plugins (drivers in our parlance), by providing our own specialized language, so that it's very difficult for such things to do any damage. As was mentioned, what's the point is bragging about your broad device support if you can't count on it? I don't blame HS for taking that approach at the time, since it probably was the only reaaonable one, but times and circumstances change and yesterdays reasonable decision can become today's lead weight.But anyway, Skibum's point is legitimate. If he can't get it to run on a fresh and stable install of XP that he sets up and leaves alone, then eXP wouldn't make any difference because he's already not messing with the OS anyway. So there are two different issues here.
- One is that it does allow for a less tamperable system that won't be twiddled with by the naive user. And there are certainly benefits to be had there, but the benefits are to the company in terms of reduced support and to the 'naive' user who gets a pre-fab system, not to the DIY users who populate this board.
- The other is the basic stability of the application itself and of the device support required to make it actually able to do the job required. In this case, eXP vs. XP is irrelevant. That's the issue that skibum is addressing. You can argue whether he's right or wrong about that basic stability, but if he is right, then eXP isn't going to help.
If they are getting rid of the software w/ hardware (hobbie version) then they will have to change their product release because they mention me in it (oh yeah, and they mention the other 9,998 user's).electron said:
In my opinion, this will never happen. They may not monitor the forums and provide assistance for user induced problems but it would be foolish to can they're money making business. There is still a small demand, though increasing, for professional automation and I'm sure with all the competition (ControlThink, CQC, HAL, and many others) that homeseer will not be selling 10,000 professional controllers. Plus they make money selling contributors work (b*stards- I'm still angry about the 35.00 especially for scripts - what the hell is that all about - I digress) Anyway, I see HST going the way of including control of hardware through THEIR programming and only supporting THEIR programming.
"But anyway, Skibum's point is legitimate. If he can't get it to run on a fresh and stable install of XP that he sets up and leaves alone, then eXP wouldn't make any difference because he's already not messing with the OS anyway. So there are two different issues here."
I don't agree. There is no way to know the various hardware drivers and other stuff that Ski (and the rest of us) add to a PC. An XPe solution all of this are part of a known configuration.
Dean, please don't take this as a knock, but until you have thousands of installs (which I assume you do not), you will not know just how stable even your system is as perceived by your customer base at that time.
If one of those customers per hundred has a problem, your forum is then flooded with issues that make it appear to be a crappy product. For your sake, I hope that you find this out and how much more difficult it is to actually meet customer individual needs and wants once you have tons of sales, vendor, customer support, "hey I have a great idea for you to do", etc. phone calls to deal with, and then to develop the core product. It is very easy to try to capitalize on a competitor in that exact situation. But, again, I hope you have that opportunity to be in HST's shoes. For our small industry (but growing), they have done an admirable job.
I don't agree. There is no way to know the various hardware drivers and other stuff that Ski (and the rest of us) add to a PC. An XPe solution all of this are part of a known configuration.
Dean, please don't take this as a knock, but until you have thousands of installs (which I assume you do not), you will not know just how stable even your system is as perceived by your customer base at that time.
If one of those customers per hundred has a problem, your forum is then flooded with issues that make it appear to be a crappy product. For your sake, I hope that you find this out and how much more difficult it is to actually meet customer individual needs and wants once you have tons of sales, vendor, customer support, "hey I have a great idea for you to do", etc. phone calls to deal with, and then to develop the core product. It is very easy to try to capitalize on a competitor in that exact situation. But, again, I hope you have that opportunity to be in HST's shoes. For our small industry (but growing), they have done an admirable job.
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