Irrigation control challenge?

[Rupp]

Fleetz,
I use an aspx web application that I developed for HomeSeer and the Rain8II to do exactly what you describe. You can access it from any PC on the net. Here's a screen shot.

 

[jlegault]

This is pretty easy with the Elk, assuming you have a computer in the house that this guy can use. The ElkRM client software lets you adjust the "custom" parameters stored in the elk, which can be used as timers for each irrigation zone. I don't think the java program that comes with the Ethernet module lets you adjust custom parameters, so you need the ElkRM client software.


Look on page 25 for an example.
ElkRM Manual

Here is an example how I have my elk control our sprinkler system using an existing sprinkler controller and an expansion relay board.

M1 Sprinkler

EDIT: My apologies for a slight detour

I was looking at what you did and had a question (I think it is a simple one but I just wanted to make sure). I have been planning to do exactly what you did (in that I want to make the existing panel be operational but also control it via the elk).

I originally ran cat5e from the elk to the sprinkler controller (about 50') and have not connected it. I currently only have four zones.

It seems that all I need to do is
1. Take one wire and connect between the common on the controller and one relay in the elk
2. Take one wire per zone and connect to the existing zone control and one relay in the elk.
3. Take one wire to the 24v hot on the controller and connect to the first relay in the elk, then chain between the remaining relays as you did and can be seen in the picture.

My question is (that I overlooked before) given the 24v connection, is cat5 inappropriate for that connection?

My relay board is local to the sprinkler controller, using the RS485 connection to the relay board via Cat5 from the elk. I'm using a 22 gauge multi-conductor wire from the relay board (about 6 feet away from the sprinkler controller) to handle the current. Cat5 is not going to work if you are using a relay board remote from the sprinkler controller (like near the elk, 50' away), heck I don't think cat5 could handle the load if the run was only 3-6 feet.

 

[jlegault]

Fleetz > Can you elaborate why and what kind of tweaks might be needed (and the frequency that this occurs)? That might help with a possible solution (knowing the scenario you are trying to cover and how often it comes up).

Thanks Guys appreciate your interest in my issue.

Let me explain the issue moe fully.

We have here in Australia a major drought effecting a good percentage of the country. The government had taken control of when and how much water can be used. They are able and have changed these parameters on an as needs basis.

Where we currently live we have just gone to water restrictions that only allow watering one day a week for three hours 5am to 8am on a Saturday morning (Saturdays is determined by your house number odds Saturday Sundays Even). Our State government is constantly reviewing water levels and changes the days and times that you are able to water.

Where we currently are building have not as restrictive times, however there are current discussions there where water levels are likely to be a change soon. So you can see there are changeable days and time of days that need to be adhered to. There are significant fines for people watering outside of these times. Indeed we have "water police" here in Australia empowered to issue on the spot fines!

Therefore need the flexiblity to:

1. At short notice to modify the sprinkler systems day, time of day and duration setting.

2. Be able to do this by remote control as we will only be at this house 6 months of the year. Ultimately I must have control and the ability to change these settings remotely. I will be the one coping the fine.

3. As a back up to the above have the local landscaper gardener we have there looking after our property should have the ability to change the settings. I have spoken to him about a what if senario where I were to have a Net based system that enable him to Tweek the settings should they be required (I have taken my eye off the ball for example). He is very comfortable is Net savvy. Indeed he has a Wifi PDA and we could easily give him access to the our wireless network and he could tweek it on the spot!

I hope now you are getting a more complete picture as to why I need the flexibility of "tweeking" the systems and also the methods by which they need to be down. Sorry I didn't make it as clear earlier for you all.

I believe that I need an open mind as to how this is achieved. Whilst I have an M1 and it would be nice in integrate the M1 it is not essential. As long as I have the flexibility to meet the above that will be a result.

I was hoping that there was a version of Rain8 that allowed this to be meet. Unfortunately the Rain8 Wifi system relies on a PC running and I think you all agree relying on this when you are not there 6 months is not smart. Is there a Rain8 unit (or another brand) that allows you to set the parameters and those parameters stored in non-volatile memory and runs under it's own steam? An IP based system seems the ideal solution at the moment. However I am open to ideas. I have an M1, ethernet adaptor, Wirless LAN network designed in. At the moment I have a Cat5e cable going to the irrigation controller location. I can put anything in as required as the building starts contruction in a few weeks time. Hence looking for the solution now.

I can not use X10 as I have a C-Bus interface controlling lighting on the M1. Again the M1 doesn't neccessarily be part of the solution. I do have a ELK touchscreen so any net based solution will enable a level of integration at a local level and would be happy with that.

Ideally the system control settings should be simple interface. The type where you tick the date, then set time of day and then press send where those setting are then stored at the controller site and not dependant on anything other that power to the house and the controller for the sprinkler system to work.

I hope that this helps you guys to understand the why and what ideally I am after. Appreciate you input to date.

Regards,

Fleetz

Believe me, with some good rules-programming, the Elk touchscreen interface, enough relays, and an Ethernet adapter, you can do exactly as you want, without a PC or a rain8.

Your gardener will have to change the following labeled custom variables as you see in the ElkRM manual (looks the same on the touchscreen I think):

Monday = 1/0
Tuesday = 1/0
Wednesday = 1/0
Thursday = 1/0
Friday = 1/0
Sat = 1/0
Sun = 1/0

Start Time = hh:mm:ss (could even make this specific to a day of the week with 7 variables)

Zone1 RT = XXXXsec (needs to be in seconds - you could print a min to sec conversion chart and post in the garage)
Zone2 RT = XXXXsec
etc...


And the solution will be very robust vs. a windows based PC.

 

[fleetz]

Hi Fleetz

Maybe have a look at the web brick...not a dedicated irrigation system but i believe it can be adjusted via the internet and would do the job .....not cheap though...

http://www.o2m8.com/shop/products/product.php?id=1

HTH
Frank
PS.....Here in Melboure we are not allowed to use sprinkler systems at all only drippers..

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the link and I agree would probably do the job with some more hardware and some configuration but also agree the price is a bit lumpy.

Yes Melbourne is worse of than Adelaide however we are now one behing you guys as from Jan 1. We have had some good rain the last few days which is more than we have seen in months!

Appreciate your input.

Regards,

Fleetz

 

[fleetz]

Fleetz > Can you elaborate why and what kind of tweaks might be needed (and the frequency that this occurs)? That might help with a possible solution (knowing the scenario you are trying to cover and how often it comes up).

Thanks Guys appreciate your interest in my issue.

Let me explain the issue moe fully.

We have here in Australia a major drought effecting a good percentage of the country. The government had taken control of when and how much water can be used. They are able and have changed these parameters on an as needs basis.

Where we currently live we have just gone to water restrictions that only allow watering one day a week for three hours 5am to 8am on a Saturday morning (Saturdays is determined by your house number odds Saturday Sundays Even). Our State government is constantly reviewing water levels and changes the days and times that you are able to water.

Where we currently are building have not as restrictive times, however there are current discussions there where water levels are likely to be a change soon. So you can see there are changeable days and time of days that need to be adhered to. There are significant fines for people watering outside of these times. Indeed we have "water police" here in Australia empowered to issue on the spot fines!

Therefore need the flexiblity to:

1. At short notice to modify the sprinkler systems day, time of day and duration setting.

2. Be able to do this by remote control as we will only be at this house 6 months of the year. Ultimately I must have control and the ability to change these settings remotely. I will be the one coping the fine.

3. As a back up to the above have the local landscaper gardener we have there looking after our property should have the ability to change the settings. I have spoken to him about a what if senario where I were to have a Net based system that enable him to Tweek the settings should they be required (I have taken my eye off the ball for example). He is very comfortable is Net savvy. Indeed he has a Wifi PDA and we could easily give him access to the our wireless network and he could tweek it on the spot!

I hope now you are getting a more complete picture as to why I need the flexibility of "tweeking" the systems and also the methods by which they need to be down. Sorry I didn't make it as clear earlier for you all.

I believe that I need an open mind as to how this is achieved. Whilst I have an M1 and it would be nice in integrate the M1 it is not essential. As long as I have the flexibility to meet the above that will be a result.

I was hoping that there was a version of Rain8 that allowed this to be meet. Unfortunately the Rain8 Wifi system relies on a PC running and I think you all agree relying on this when you are not there 6 months is not smart. Is there a Rain8 unit (or another brand) that allows you to set the parameters and those parameters stored in non-volatile memory and runs under it's own steam? An IP based system seems the ideal solution at the moment. However I am open to ideas. I have an M1, ethernet adaptor, Wirless LAN network designed in. At the moment I have a Cat5e cable going to the irrigation controller location. I can put anything in as required as the building starts contruction in a few weeks time. Hence looking for the solution now.

I can not use X10 as I have a C-Bus interface controlling lighting on the M1. Again the M1 doesn't neccessarily be part of the solution. I do have a ELK touchscreen so any net based solution will enable a level of integration at a local level and would be happy with that.

Ideally the system control settings should be simple interface. The type where you tick the date, then set time of day and then press send where those setting are then stored at the controller site and not dependant on anything other that power to the house and the controller for the sprinkler system to work.

I hope that this helps you guys to understand the why and what ideally I am after. Appreciate you input to date.

Regards,

Fleetz

Believe me, with some good rules-programming, the Elk touchscreen interface, enough relays, and an Ethernet adapter, you can do exactly as you want, without a PC or a rain8.

Your gardener will have to change the following labeled custom variables as you see in the ElkRM manual (looks the same on the touchscreen I think):

Monday = 1/0
Tuesday = 1/0
Wednesday = 1/0
Thursday = 1/0
Friday = 1/0
Sat = 1/0
Sun = 1/0

Start Time = hh:mm:ss (could even make this specific to a day of the week with 7 variables)

Zone1 RT = XXXXsec (needs to be in seconds - you could print a min to sec conversion chart and post in the garage)
Zone2 RT = XXXXsec
etc...


And the solution will be very robust vs. a windows based PC.

Thanks again jlegault,

I will drill down and start to get into some custom variables rules programming. Not done any variables before but I am sure I will get there. Do you know if there are any good tutorials on the subject? The ELK info is a bit thin unless I am not looking in the right place the ELKRM doesn't go into any real detail.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Fleetz

 

[jlegault]

Basically, the way I think of this is as a program, and then I convert the program into rules. If I were to divide your program up into parts:

1) The task that operates the sprinklers

2) The trigger that starts the task

The core of what you need for 1) is in the blog link. The basic structure is:

When task "run sprinklers" and sprinklers are armed, then

Turn on Zone 1 (output) for Zone1Time (custom variable in seconds)

When Zone 1 turns off then

Turn on Zone 2 (output) for Zone2Time (custom variable in seconds)

etc...


For 2), the structure could look like:

When Day of week = Thursday and time = StartSime (custom variable) and Dayoff(counter) less than ThursOn (custom variable)

run task "run sprinklers"

would need one of these statements for each day of the week.


one issue with the elk that is sort of annoying is that it does not allow you to write the statement

When conditionX... and custom variable = 1, then....

to get around this I just create a counter = 0 and then check to see if the custom variable's value is greater than 0.


You should have custom variables similar to the ones below:

StartTime : hh:mm:ss //start time for system
Zone1Time: X seconds //duration zone is on
Zone2Time: X seconds
...
ZoneNTime: X seconds
MonOn: 1/0 //whether to turn on on monday
TuesOn: 1/0
...
SunOn: 1/0

Using ELKRM or the touch pad, you can directly set the values of these custom variables using a numeric keypad.

 

[fleetz]

Basically, the way I think of this is as a program, and then I convert the program into rules. If I were to divide your program up into parts:

1) The task that operates the sprinklers

2) The trigger that starts the task

The core of what you need for 1) is in the blog link. The basic structure is:

When task "run sprinklers" and sprinklers are armed, then

Turn on Zone 1 (output) for Zone1Time (custom variable in seconds)

When Zone 1 turns off then

Turn on Zone 2 (output) for Zone2Time (custom variable in seconds)

etc...


For 2), the structure could look like:

When Day of week = Thursday and time = StartSime (custom variable) and Dayoff(counter) less than ThursOn (custom variable)

run task "run sprinklers"

would need one of these statements for each day of the week.


one issue with the elk that is sort of annoying is that it does not allow you to write the statement

When conditionX... and custom variable = 1, then....

to get around this I just create a counter = 0 and then check to see if the custom variable's value is greater than 0.


You should have custom variables similar to the ones below:

StartTime : hh:mm:ss //start time for system
Zone1Time: X seconds //duration zone is on
Zone2Time: X seconds
...
ZoneNTime: X seconds
MonOn: 1/0 //whether to turn on on monday
TuesOn: 1/0
...
SunOn: 1/0

Using ELKRM or the touch pad, you can directly set the values of these custom variables using a numeric keypad.

Thanks jlegault,

That is brilliant so much so...... I can see the light! Thank you for sharing the experience you have gained.

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

[FrankMc]

Hi Fleetz

Maybe this could be a solution when its available depending on the price...???

http://www.integratorsforum.com/showthread.php?t=6424

HTH
Frank

 

[fleetz]

Hi Fleetz

Maybe this could be a solution when its available depending on the price...???

http://www.integratorsforum.com/showthread.php?t=6424

HTH
Frank

Hi Frank,

Thanks I have been keeping an eye on the Beaver for a while. The guys developing are from SA not sure when the reality of seeing the system it has been coming for quite a while. It does look interesting all the same.

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

[[email protected]]

Hi,
Don't know if you've found a solution but here is something that might work.

Do a search on "EtherRain." This company makes an ethernet sprinkler valve controller. The controller is directly controllable through an Internet scheduling site.

This isn't one of those gadgety x10 kludges :angry: like Rain8, this is direct Internet control of your irrigation sprinklers from a browser. Your schedule is stored on their server. You must have always on Internet access to use it. This will allow you or your gardener to access your irrigation schedule from any browser, no matter where you are or where your gardener is. If your gardener has a google phone or an iphone or similar, he/she can controll access your irrigation while standing in your yard, or while at their office.

The site was designed for use in the US/Canada, but might have application in Australia. If you are interested you can go to http://www.lawncheck.com to get more info. From this site you can schedule and control up to three EtherRain 8 valve controllers for no fees. You can attach the EtherRain controllers to you LAN via direct cat5, or wirelessly by using an Access Point bridge.

It seems like you have fairly rigid scheduling restrictions, so you'd have to check their scheduling software out to see if it would work for you.

hope this provides another idea,

h20saver,

 

[cliffs]

I am sure you want remote access as this is built in to the ELK M1G through the
telephone remote(or internet if you add additional modules). If you use a monitoring service
you will already have the phone setup.

Elk has several add-on relay modules(one just plugs in the M1 directly). These relay modules
will switch the 24vac for your water valves. One run of Cat5 cable will switch 7 valves, if you
need more just run another cable.

Most landscapers have a setup for your winter and summer watering schedule which you can program into
the Elk M1G. By running separate wires to each of the valves you can control the system any way you like.
The duration can be easily set from the telephone(or internet).

Don't use a regular irrigation controller as they are not flexible enough(and you just don't need one with
the M1G). You can set the watering time to change every week month or whatever. There are moisture
modules available(you can use one from a regular irrigation controller as they are usually separate form the
controller). Just hook the moisture controller to one of the zones on the M1G. The valves can be powered from
a 24vac wall transformer.

I wouldn't let the landscapers set the controller as they will probably send some assistant and they will
mess up the programming, do it yourself remotely. This can be done with only a phone line. If you are in a different
country you can always use Skype for cheap phone calls.

The nice feature of the M1G is that you can add water shut off valves, water detectors and etc. to keep track of your
house while you are away.

I live in a neighborhood where many are only here during the winter months. Most of these folks hire someone to inspect there
house occasionally. The water system has two valves one that shuts off just the house and the other the irrigation, so you can
leave the irrigation on shut off the water to the house.

I wouldn't have a part time home without professional monitoring for fire at least. The reason with fire time is important and
the monitoring services are 24/7 where you are not. By being able to arm and disarm your security system remotely you can allow
entry into your home if it is needed. If you add a electric lock you can also lock the door remotely.

Cliff s