I only have a dozen or so SA devices and the way I'm using the MLS hasn't involved them. I will give it a real world test when the M1 integration is complete.
PCS MiLightStyle Anybody using it?
- Thread starter Digger
- Start date
Not sure why PCS does not pick up the phine and call SA. I would but I dont work for PCS.
Maybe they dont want to support anyone elses devices. Its not like they have to the way Zwave requires compatability. From what i hear the webmountain device works with any mfg switches and dimmers.
Anyway i will have to do something else as next month it will be a year with no automated lighting since the Milightstyle doesnt work. Wife is real tired of coming home to a dark house etc this time of year.
Maybe they dont want to support anyone elses devices. Its not like they have to the way Zwave requires compatability. From what i hear the webmountain device works with any mfg switches and dimmers.
Anyway i will have to do something else as next month it will be a year with no automated lighting since the Milightstyle doesnt work. Wife is real tired of coming home to a dark house etc this time of year.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I'll email my contacts Monday and see what they say.
In the mean time, if you have an Elk, why aren't you using that to turn on the lights? I have my Elk doing most of my lighting automation.
Gave away the PIM from the ELK when I got the Milightstyle. It was supposed to work. I had even told Scott upfront I have a mix of everyone's devices. I don't think PCS knew at the time that the other mfg's would not work. From his emails seems like they only realized it a few months back and thought people didn't know how to use it. I had started reporting it during beta testing though. I think they assumed since there are no instructions yet people don't know how to use it correctly.
I just picked up a WebMountain RUC-01. Waited since last November for PCS to finish the Milightstyle and i have the feeling i will still be waiting next November.
The only drawback is the RUC-01 does not intergrate with the ELK so i cant control my lights from the ELK touchscreens. A plus is that it will do UPB and Zwave from one controller.
I just hope it keeps a true status of the UPB lights like the Milightstyle was supposed to. Never found out as it would not recognize my SA devices.
The only drawback is the RUC-01 does not intergrate with the ELK so i cant control my lights from the ELK touchscreens. A plus is that it will do UPB and Zwave from one controller.
I just hope it keeps a true status of the UPB lights like the Milightstyle was supposed to. Never found out as it would not recognize my SA devices.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Digger - I'll be interested in seeing what you think of the RUC... I was more than disappointed with the lack of functionality once I got my hands on it.
I don't believe it keeps status... I'll have to look at my phone again to see what it looks like in the app - if it even shows status. My copy of the app was crashing a lot every time I tried to use it on the iPhone. The web-site is really bad - there's no provisions for uploading your upstart file or it discovering your devices - you have to go figure out what the command it then program it into one of their 8 or so slots... The way the iPhone app does it is you have to sync an upstart file directly to the phone which it then reads.
All in all this really hurts UPB IMO - UPB needs an ISY or a Vera desperately... until then, I find myself recommending people to go with Z-Wave for small jobs lately.
I don't believe it keeps status... I'll have to look at my phone again to see what it looks like in the app - if it even shows status. My copy of the app was crashing a lot every time I tried to use it on the iPhone. The web-site is really bad - there's no provisions for uploading your upstart file or it discovering your devices - you have to go figure out what the command it then program it into one of their 8 or so slots... The way the iPhone app does it is you have to sync an upstart file directly to the phone which it then reads.
All in all this really hurts UPB IMO - UPB needs an ISY or a Vera desperately... until then, I find myself recommending people to go with Z-Wave for small jobs lately.
It sounds pretty bad. I think i read the hype and believed it hoping that there was a mature product out there with good support. I think the only really supported controller is the ISY but Insteon quality is still lackimg and with SH being the only mfg its not going to improve.
Homeseer would be second i guess and i have a hometroller but not enough time to get it all up and running probably only to find out it does not track status either. I asked on the forum over a year ago and got conflicting answers.
UPB is sorely missing a contoller that can track status. The Milightstyle supposedly can but it only supports PCS devices (so far). I think it may work with a limited amount of other mfg devices but it sounds like they never even tried them from Scotts emails. There is also no support for it yet (no forum or installation instructions even yet).
Homeseer would be second i guess and i have a hometroller but not enough time to get it all up and running probably only to find out it does not track status either. I asked on the forum over a year ago and got conflicting answers.
UPB is sorely missing a contoller that can track status. The Milightstyle supposedly can but it only supports PCS devices (so far). I think it may work with a limited amount of other mfg devices but it sounds like they never even tried them from Scotts emails. There is also no support for it yet (no forum or installation instructions even yet).
tmbrown97
Senior Member
One thing I will mention - if you want to go software, Elve does an excellent job of tracking status. Not only does it poll every device regularly enough, it also knows every device that's part of a scene, so after a scene is executed, it then polls each device in that scene to update status right away. That's why I have 3 CIM's - one for Elk, one for Elve, and one for programming/diagnostics/the RUC.
Our product, the RUC-01, has been mentioned a few times in this thread, so I’d like to provide a little more detail about the philosophy behind the RUC and what we think it is best at. The intention of the RUC was not, at least initially, to be a replacement for something like HomeSeer, or even MiLightStyle. We were not trying to build a new all encompassing controller. Being UPB guys and working with many UPB dealers and installers, there are several main issues we were trying to resolve.
First, installers told us that installing UPB devices was painful from a programming standpoint. In a typical home, they would have to move their laptop and PIM many times to be close to the next switch they were programming. With the RUC, they install the RUC and its PIM in a desirable location, such as close to the breaker box, then they use their laptops on a wireless network and easily move around the house programming the devices. We have some installers who buy RUCs just for that purpose.
Secondly, we were also told by installers that it was painful when a client called them up and asked them to change the programming on their UPB network. They would have to do a truck roll. Instead, now with the RUC, they can log in remotely, using Upstart and make the changes from the desktop in their office. In fact, several installers do the barest minimum they can get away with at the actual site, then go back to their office and do the link programming there, rather than at the client’s location.
Thirdly, even in the smallest and simplest of installations, there is always a desire for scheduling. Having the internet connection means we provide a very accurate scheduler in the RUC and we can track sunset and sunrise daily.
Fourth, we also get requests from folks saying I merely want to control drapes at the same time I control my lights – how do I do that? With two serial ports, we provide conversions between protocols, so as an example it is very easy to detect a UPB link and send out a serial command to control an ESI motor controller. With these two serial ports, it is easy to trigger events for one protocol from another protocol.
We also wanted to offer a low cost device that could be used for email origination to offer timely alerts when exceptional conditions arise and we wanted to answer the need many installers have for providing simple but functional lighting control options from smartphones. The RUC provides email alerts and a variety of smartphone interfaces.
Another way to use the RUC is as an Ethernet PIM. For example, if you are running PC based automation software and don’t have a dedicated controller, install the RUC and its PIM close to the breaker box and then setup the controller to send commands over Ethernet. Now you don’t have to connect a PIM to a serial port of your desktop and try to find an outlet without a UPS on it. Additionally, you don’t have to have the PC running 24x7, as you can do the scheduling within the RUC.
One other thing that many of our dealers appreciate is the ability to turn any device running under any of the protocols we support into a count-down timer or to daisy chain commands from one device to another, hopping protocols if so desired.
We differ in philosophy from the MiLightStyel and PC-based controllers in believing that the very best tool for setup, trouble-shooting and tinkering with your UPB network is UPStart. Many controller vendors have learned that trying to keep up with all the changes in the UPB world is a daunting task. So, why not just find a way to use Upstart? Upstart is always up to date with new products, is very stable and reliable, and provides more monitoring and diagnostic tools than any other controller we’ve seen. While a controller manufacturer can attempt to perform the functions of Upstart, our position is that they will always be out of date and never up to speed with Upstart.
In this thread there are several comments about showing status. Right now, the RUC will not show any status. While we have simple user interfaces for browser and smartphone access, we don’t show status from them (the paid iPhone app done by a third party does show status). Our product roadmap does have an item on it for us to provide status and we have thought a lot about this and have an approach we will try. But status in any reasonably large installation, no matter the protocol, can be problematic. How will constant polling and/or heavy device response traffic affect the control commands that happen spontaneously but are vitally important to the system’s reliability? Despite the inherent problems, we will be tackling status in a future release.
I hope this gives a better understanding of the features and perceived shortcomings of the RUC-01. We’re always open to questions and suggestions – please visit our web site to contact us.
First, installers told us that installing UPB devices was painful from a programming standpoint. In a typical home, they would have to move their laptop and PIM many times to be close to the next switch they were programming. With the RUC, they install the RUC and its PIM in a desirable location, such as close to the breaker box, then they use their laptops on a wireless network and easily move around the house programming the devices. We have some installers who buy RUCs just for that purpose.
Secondly, we were also told by installers that it was painful when a client called them up and asked them to change the programming on their UPB network. They would have to do a truck roll. Instead, now with the RUC, they can log in remotely, using Upstart and make the changes from the desktop in their office. In fact, several installers do the barest minimum they can get away with at the actual site, then go back to their office and do the link programming there, rather than at the client’s location.
Thirdly, even in the smallest and simplest of installations, there is always a desire for scheduling. Having the internet connection means we provide a very accurate scheduler in the RUC and we can track sunset and sunrise daily.
Fourth, we also get requests from folks saying I merely want to control drapes at the same time I control my lights – how do I do that? With two serial ports, we provide conversions between protocols, so as an example it is very easy to detect a UPB link and send out a serial command to control an ESI motor controller. With these two serial ports, it is easy to trigger events for one protocol from another protocol.
We also wanted to offer a low cost device that could be used for email origination to offer timely alerts when exceptional conditions arise and we wanted to answer the need many installers have for providing simple but functional lighting control options from smartphones. The RUC provides email alerts and a variety of smartphone interfaces.
Another way to use the RUC is as an Ethernet PIM. For example, if you are running PC based automation software and don’t have a dedicated controller, install the RUC and its PIM close to the breaker box and then setup the controller to send commands over Ethernet. Now you don’t have to connect a PIM to a serial port of your desktop and try to find an outlet without a UPS on it. Additionally, you don’t have to have the PC running 24x7, as you can do the scheduling within the RUC.
One other thing that many of our dealers appreciate is the ability to turn any device running under any of the protocols we support into a count-down timer or to daisy chain commands from one device to another, hopping protocols if so desired.
We differ in philosophy from the MiLightStyel and PC-based controllers in believing that the very best tool for setup, trouble-shooting and tinkering with your UPB network is UPStart. Many controller vendors have learned that trying to keep up with all the changes in the UPB world is a daunting task. So, why not just find a way to use Upstart? Upstart is always up to date with new products, is very stable and reliable, and provides more monitoring and diagnostic tools than any other controller we’ve seen. While a controller manufacturer can attempt to perform the functions of Upstart, our position is that they will always be out of date and never up to speed with Upstart.
In this thread there are several comments about showing status. Right now, the RUC will not show any status. While we have simple user interfaces for browser and smartphone access, we don’t show status from them (the paid iPhone app done by a third party does show status). Our product roadmap does have an item on it for us to provide status and we have thought a lot about this and have an approach we will try. But status in any reasonably large installation, no matter the protocol, can be problematic. How will constant polling and/or heavy device response traffic affect the control commands that happen spontaneously but are vitally important to the system’s reliability? Despite the inherent problems, we will be tackling status in a future release.
I hope this gives a better understanding of the features and perceived shortcomings of the RUC-01. We’re always open to questions and suggestions – please visit our web site to contact us.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Thanks for replying and clearing up what the device is/isn't. The ability to remote into a PIM is probably pretty handy for most - especially since laptops don't have serial ports anymore. This was a non-issue for me since I've always had the controller plugged into a WHS computer that I remote into as I go around the house.
Personally I bought one to test out to see if it would be a viable option to sell to clients with very small UPB installs who are just starting to tinker - the kind where you replace one or two light switches, add a couple appliance modules and maybe an input/output module, and give the person a handy little iPhone/web app where they can do basic scheduling and control to show off to their friends without having to get into a whole automation controller. For that the only real options out are the RUC or MiLightStyle - and unfortunately neither are really up to the task just yet.
I know what I'd like to see is for the web-site to allow you to upload an upstart file or even just scan the network and get the most basic device names so I can see/control them from the web-site. It needs to be something where any novice user could open the web-site, hit a "Scheduling" tab and select "Front Porch" lights on at [Sunset] - or something like that... Also, keeping track of status is extremely important - I think we all know why UPB status is hard to track (if you're not sure, the info is in the UPB article in my signature). That said, plenty of people have figured out ways - CQC, Homeseer, Elve, HAI - all with their own implementations. I don't know the details of the others terribly well, but I know how Elve does it - and it seems to have the right idea.
As far as the iPhone app - it could use a little love too - it gives no real feedback to whether the command you clicked is happening or not - and crashes very often. I find myself opening it and tapping a light a few times, waiting for something to happen - maybe the light will come on - maybe eventually I'll get a popup saying it couldn't connect... I have no idea unless I can see the light I'm trying to control. I've found it so unusable that I don't even try - I just use eKeypad. That's unfortunate - because the way it groups by room is actually pretty slick and would make it easier for a large install such as mine (60+ devices).
I still strongly believe in UPB and I stick with it at my house - but when people ask me what they should try, I find myself recommending Z-Wave and a Vera - just because the devices are cheap and accessible and there's a controller that works. If the supporters of UPB don't come up with something soon, you'll all lose out on this market full of people just starting out. With the right controller, I could sell a lot of these to people who just want to automate a couple of lights to start out... people who want to automate their exterior lights today, then their christmas lights, then maybe the kids' bathroom, and so on. They'll buy it just for the "cool" factor of being able to do it via their iPhone. Hell - even simple control of things like Garage Doors via the input/output modules... there's so much untapped potential if we just had the right controller to tie things together.
Also - the pricing of the MiLightStyle - is just delusional. That product failed the day they set the price on it... The controller can't cost more than $200 or you completely shut out the starter market. With Home Automation taking off the way it is today, now is the time to get a device out there that can capture people as they're first getting into automation, or you'll lose them forever.
Personally I bought one to test out to see if it would be a viable option to sell to clients with very small UPB installs who are just starting to tinker - the kind where you replace one or two light switches, add a couple appliance modules and maybe an input/output module, and give the person a handy little iPhone/web app where they can do basic scheduling and control to show off to their friends without having to get into a whole automation controller. For that the only real options out are the RUC or MiLightStyle - and unfortunately neither are really up to the task just yet.
I know what I'd like to see is for the web-site to allow you to upload an upstart file or even just scan the network and get the most basic device names so I can see/control them from the web-site. It needs to be something where any novice user could open the web-site, hit a "Scheduling" tab and select "Front Porch" lights on at [Sunset] - or something like that... Also, keeping track of status is extremely important - I think we all know why UPB status is hard to track (if you're not sure, the info is in the UPB article in my signature). That said, plenty of people have figured out ways - CQC, Homeseer, Elve, HAI - all with their own implementations. I don't know the details of the others terribly well, but I know how Elve does it - and it seems to have the right idea.
As far as the iPhone app - it could use a little love too - it gives no real feedback to whether the command you clicked is happening or not - and crashes very often. I find myself opening it and tapping a light a few times, waiting for something to happen - maybe the light will come on - maybe eventually I'll get a popup saying it couldn't connect... I have no idea unless I can see the light I'm trying to control. I've found it so unusable that I don't even try - I just use eKeypad. That's unfortunate - because the way it groups by room is actually pretty slick and would make it easier for a large install such as mine (60+ devices).
I still strongly believe in UPB and I stick with it at my house - but when people ask me what they should try, I find myself recommending Z-Wave and a Vera - just because the devices are cheap and accessible and there's a controller that works. If the supporters of UPB don't come up with something soon, you'll all lose out on this market full of people just starting out. With the right controller, I could sell a lot of these to people who just want to automate a couple of lights to start out... people who want to automate their exterior lights today, then their christmas lights, then maybe the kids' bathroom, and so on. They'll buy it just for the "cool" factor of being able to do it via their iPhone. Hell - even simple control of things like Garage Doors via the input/output modules... there's so much untapped potential if we just had the right controller to tie things together.
Also - the pricing of the MiLightStyle - is just delusional. That product failed the day they set the price on it... The controller can't cost more than $200 or you completely shut out the starter market. With Home Automation taking off the way it is today, now is the time to get a device out there that can capture people as they're first getting into automation, or you'll lose them forever.
Todd I agree a solid feature packed controller is sorely lacking for UPB. I dont see PCS putting the effort into the Milightstyle the past year since the beta release. I am not very confident they will even have an instruction manual published in 2012 let alone a firmware upgrade to be compatible with other mfg's but hopefully I am wrong. While I do agree the Milightstyle is overpriced especially for a product with very little support, no instructions, and only works with PCS (for the most part)I think a controller can range up to $400 depending on its capabilities. Look how many people bought the ISY (then again some may have been desperate).
Looks like Webmountain has plans to add features and already has but will probably not ever be on the level of an ISY etc.from what they are saying. If I could get i to stay connected I would experiment with it and possibly keep it but lack of ELK support and the issues I am seeing I dont think it is worth all of the hassle.
I should probably just go with the Hometroller in my house and just not install any sort of controller elsewhere. To be honest I dont get that many people who even want automated lighting anymore (last one with lighting was September). The few installs I have been doing with my friends company have been alarms and they are getting smaller and smaller in scope. A sign of the economy. Upselling is worse then pulling teeth lately.
Looks like Webmountain has plans to add features and already has but will probably not ever be on the level of an ISY etc.from what they are saying. If I could get i to stay connected I would experiment with it and possibly keep it but lack of ELK support and the issues I am seeing I dont think it is worth all of the hassle.
I should probably just go with the Hometroller in my house and just not install any sort of controller elsewhere. To be honest I dont get that many people who even want automated lighting anymore (last one with lighting was September). The few installs I have been doing with my friends company have been alarms and they are getting smaller and smaller in scope. A sign of the economy. Upselling is worse then pulling teeth lately.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
After watching these boards for the last 4 years, I'm definitely seeing a trend where more and more people are going for Z-Wave rather than UPB... and I think almost everyone who starts out just buys one or two switches - just to try things out... those are the people I see as lost opportunities right now. I don't even need full ISY-type support - just something that can run a scheduler and give iPhone control and status - basically what I thought the RUC would be... and ideally in the $150-range. I look at the plug-computer that runs a full PBX that I paid $99 for and wonder why we can't get something cheap like that?
Honestly the Vera seems like a game-changer to me - maybe they can just step up and include UPB - that'd be awesome for a lot of people!
Honestly the Vera seems like a game-changer to me - maybe they can just step up and include UPB - that'd be awesome for a lot of people!
The PIM does not stay connected to the RUC-01 it seems (followed their instructions then their Tech Supports alternate setup instructions). I have not been able to change one single device program let alone have it do anything as far as a schedule. I will just send it back and stop wasting my time. They admitted it might be a defective PIM but at this point the suggestions of buying another PIM etc to try it are not what I would want to address a problem with what is supposed to be a brand new product (they supplied a PIM that looked used to me). I should state that I bought this from an online auction (advertised as new from Web Mountain) and there is little financial incentive for them to replace it. It will be cheaper for them if I just return it. At this point I am fine with that.
Since the Milightstyle has not progressed in the 4 months since this thread started I am not hopeful it will be complete (firmware or documentation) any time soon. Does not seem like PCS is putting any effort into picking up the phone and calling SA for the mapping. Maybe they are not on speaking terms but I still think they should advertise it for use with PCS devices only.
Looks like I have to see if I can use the Hometroller for my house but I had hoped for something a lot simpler to setup and that I could use for a few installs that were put in with the promise that a controller would be available this year. The cost of the Hometroller and the time to set it up it does not pay to install it anywhere else.
Todd as you stated Zwave seems to be the direction to go in for newbies as overall (selection, quality, controller) it seems to be the future. UPB quality is awesome (hardware and performance) but the lack of a controller puts it behind Zwave. Four years and not having any UPB devices fail and not problems with it has been great. But a controller is needed to do anything "fun" with it. I actually find UPB boring without a controller.
Since the Milightstyle has not progressed in the 4 months since this thread started I am not hopeful it will be complete (firmware or documentation) any time soon. Does not seem like PCS is putting any effort into picking up the phone and calling SA for the mapping. Maybe they are not on speaking terms but I still think they should advertise it for use with PCS devices only.
Looks like I have to see if I can use the Hometroller for my house but I had hoped for something a lot simpler to setup and that I could use for a few installs that were put in with the promise that a controller would be available this year. The cost of the Hometroller and the time to set it up it does not pay to install it anywhere else.
Todd as you stated Zwave seems to be the direction to go in for newbies as overall (selection, quality, controller) it seems to be the future. UPB quality is awesome (hardware and performance) but the lack of a controller puts it behind Zwave. Four years and not having any UPB devices fail and not problems with it has been great. But a controller is needed to do anything "fun" with it. I actually find UPB boring without a controller.
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