smoke detector basics

[apostolakisl]

Not entirely true. It is not recommended to install heat detectors on a 2 wire loop with a reversing relay, as when the polarity is reversed, the short is maintained, which can damage the panel/power supply the reversed power is drawn off of. Heat detectors should be separated from the loop that has a reversing relay installed.

As far as the post above me, by saying "garage" I hear it as uninhabitable space as specified by code, which would preclude the installation of smoke detectors. If your garage has sleeping areas, that's a different item altogether.

Dell, I am talking about a 4 wire detector. The polarity is reversed on the power lines and a passive heat detector doesn't have anything to do with power lines.

"you can mix passive heat detectors with active 4 wire smoke detectors since the passive devices only use the 2 signal wires"

I specifically also said NOT to mix when using a 2 wire system.

 

[Del91574]

Lou, that is what I said, your post didn't clearly spell it out, and I read and re-read it as mixing 2 wire detectors, which includes smokes.

The only way you can mix TYPE of detectors on a 2 wire loop with polarity reversal is to install electronic heat detectors, not mechanical.

 

[oldchachie]

Well, I talked to the inspector today, low voltage smokes tied to a panel are ok so long as they are interconnected and have battery backup. I'm thinking to use the system sensor i3 series with my elk m1. Now to figure out which ones to get and how to wire them....

 

[apostolakisl]

Well, I talked to the inspector today, low voltage smokes tied to a panel are ok so long as they are interconnected and have battery backup. I'm thinking to use the system sensor i3 series with my elk m1. Now to figure out which ones to get and how to wire them....

I checked the 2 wire compatibility list on system sensor website for the i3. Elk is not listed. Moose is listed (the predecesor to Elk) but I don't think that counts.

 

[Del91574]

If you're wiring to a 2WMOD-2 and RRS, the UL listing is intact, as the 2WMOD takes over any compatibility issues and the unit wires as a 4 wire loop.

Elk's listings are somewhat out of date, older models, as they have not had their equipment recertified with the newer units directly.

 

[reko19]

So if I am using ELK and would like to be able to distinguish what floor is in alarm, I would need to use 4-wire smoke detectors with power supply wires connected to SAUX terminal and alarm wires connected to any one of the sixteen zones, one pair per floor? Wiring would be daisy chained within the floor and then a home run from the last SD to ELK?

If one of the floors is in alarm would I have sounders going of on the other floors? This would be my preference, don't think this is the case.

thanks.

 

[Del91574]

So if I am using ELK and would like to be able to distinguish what floor is in alarm, I would need to use 4-wire smoke detectors with power supply wires connected to SAUX terminal and alarm wires connected to any one of the sixteen zones, one pair per floor? Wiring would be daisy chained within the floor and then a home run from the last SD to ELK?
If one of the floors is in alarm would I have sounders going of on the other floors? This would be my preference, don't think this is the case.
thanks.

You would have 4 conductors homerun from the panel to the last detector per zone with an appropriate power supervision relay. Tandem ring would need to be accomplished using a reversing relay.

 

[reko19]

You would have 4 conductors homerun from the panel to the last detector per zone with an appropriate power supervision relay. Tandem ring would need to be accomplished using a reversing relay.

So i need a 4-conductor to the first detector and then a 4-conductor back to panel? Any chance you could do a hand sketch and either upload or email it to me. I spent a lot of time researching the subject, your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Del91574]

No.

If you were running 3 zones of 4 wire fire, you would have 3 4/18 cables at the panel, 1 for each floor, so the first floor would have an 18/4 from the panel daisy chained to the last detector on that floor, likewise for the other floors. Each loop would require a power supervision relay.

 

[reko19]

No.
If you were running 3 zones of 4 wire fire, you would have 3 4/18 cables at the panel, 1 for each floor, so the first floor would have an 18/4 from the panel daisy chained to the last detector on that floor, likewise for the other floors. Each loop would require a power supervision relay.

This is what I was planning on doing. I am not clear on how to make them sound at the same time though.

 

[Del91574]

You need a reversing relay.

Assuming you install System Sensor 4W-TAB's, you would use an RRS-MOD to trigger the tandem ring, following the instructions that come with the relay, and I'd recommend to use the purple wire via OUT3 on the board to trigger the tandem ring.

 

[reko19]

You need a reversing relay.

Assuming you install System Sensor 4W-TAB's, you would use an RRS-MOD to trigger the tandem ring, following the instructions that come with the relay, and I'd recommend to use the purple wire via OUT3 on the board to trigger the tandem ring.

Thanks Del. Also came across this thread which was very helpful:

http://cocoontech.co...__fromsearch__1

Did not realize that power needs to be reversed for the sounders to be activated. Does that mean that I would need RSS-MOD to sound all detectors regardless of weather or not I want floor separation?

Regards.

 

[apostolakisl]

Does that mean that I would need RSS-MOD to sound all detectors regardless of weather or not I want floor separation?

Correct. A 4-wire detector sounds if
It has a sounder (they don't all have sounders)
And one or both of the following
-It detects smoke at that detector
-It's power supply polarity is swapped (provided it has that common feature)

 

[reko19]

Correct. A 4-wire detector sounds if
It has a sounder (they don't all have sounders)
And one or both of the following
-It detects smoke at that detector
-It's power supply polarity is swapped (provided it has that common feature)

Thank you all for your help

 

[reko19]

You need a reversing relay.

Assuming you install System Sensor 4W-TAB's, you would use an RRS-MOD to trigger the tandem ring, following the instructions that come with the relay, and I'd recommend to use the purple wire via OUT3 on the board to trigger the tandem ring.

Starting to wire it up, have another question. Do you then program OUT3 to activate when zone 16 is violated? Also, SAUX is switched so SDs could be reset. How do I switch it, could it be programmed into one of the F keys on the keypad. Is "11=Fire Verified" used for that?

thank you