Which software automation to go with HAI

[rsw686]

I have an HAI OmniPro controller and UPB switches that I would like to expand on. I am looking to create more advanced rules and build a few touchscreens to use on an iPhone / iPad. I would also like to view IP cameras and control a Global Cache iTach for IR control.
 
I've tested Elve, CQC and Premise, and am also looking at HomeSeer. None seem to have all the features or work as I expected.
 
Development on Elve seems to have stopped, which is unfortunate as the interface is laid out nicely. I was going to go with this one anyway until I tried the touchscreen viewer. With both Windows and iOS clients it takes a second or two for the screens to change. Additionally when moving sliders the repaint is extremely sluggish.
 
I installed Premise, but couldn't figure out how to connect it to the OmniPro over IP. It looks to only support serial ports. Additionally there is no active development and the web page interface is dated.
 
With CQC the interface is confusing, but after watching the tutorial I had it up and running. There are some places in the admin interface where text is cut off slightly. This is annonying on a product that costs a few hundred dollars. Additionally I can't test the iPhone / iPad app without purchasing it. However reading forums threads it looks like I can't view the IP cameras from the iPad client.
 
HomeSeer's website is a mess. Has HomeSeer 3 been relased yet as I can only find a trial for the beta? Additionally plugins look to be all third party. This is on the list to download and test.
 
I've read numerous threads and can't decide which way to go. I want something that is reliable for running rules and can create touch screens that are responsive.

 

[picta]

Have you looked at Haiku and HaikuHelper?

 

[Dean Roddey]

What places in the Admin Intf. is the text cut off? We'll take a look at them and get them fixes. Though, I have to say that if that's the biggest issue you have, then the other thousand things it does very well should hopefully somewhat counter-balance a few pieces of cut off text until such time.

 

[rsw686]

Have you looked at Haiku and HaikuHelper?

 
I use Haiku already, which is awesome. HaikuHelper looks good, but I don't have a Mac. Plus it doesn't look to have drivers to integrate with other components.

 

[rsw686]

What places in the Admin Intf. is the text cut off? We'll take a look at them and get them fixes. Though, I have to say that if that's the biggest issue you have, then the other thousand things it does very well should hopefully somewhat counter-balance a few pieces of cut off text until such time.

 
The text is a minor annoyance. On the CQC field browser Sem Type: is only showing half the e and m:. If I name a zone more than 6 or so characters the arming, status, and latched is cut off in the list. The window is allowed to be resized, but none of the controls resize. Additionally this is the only window where hitting Esc won't close it.
 
Honestly I was getting frustrated from having to watch the video tutorials to understand how CQC works. I've always been able to get a product basically up and running without consulting the manual.
 
There are a few other things:
 
1. Having to pay for the iPhone / iPad app. The CQC tier already limits the number of clients. If I have a guest over for the weekend it would be nice if they could use their device to control their room, etc. Additionally I can't test the functionality before committing to purchasing.
2. HAI OmniPro driver is missing the ability to view / act on the thermostat status Off, Cooling, Heating, Dehumidifying, Humidifying. See page 23 (19 if looking at written page numbers) on the OmniLink II Protocol Reference.
3. The room configuration only allows 4 lighting loads to be assigned. I'm assuming I can manually place more on the screens.
4. I have read in a few places that the iPhone / iPad can't have IP video feeds displayed. Is this still an issue?
5. A small annoyance is the administer local client driver for the HAI OmniPro doesn't have a Get Names button to pull the area, zone, and thermostat names from the controller.
6. I have been debating on trying out RadioRA2 and only the Lutron Homeworks has an administer local client driver interface, not the RadioRA2 IP driver. I would have to edit the config in a text file, which doesn't feel polished.

 

[Frunple]

I think the majority of HAI users are gonna suggest Haiku.
I use Elve and am curious about the problems you described. Can you expand on them?? I have never seen any type of issue with my touchscreens and I use some pretty elaborate screens. I'm not suggesting you use Elve, as you said it's pretty much dead at this point, so if you don't want to go into it further then that's fine. You just piqued my curiosity is all.
 
You may want to hold off a while before deciding. Looks like Leviton is trying to head in the direction of a full system, meaning front end included, with their new line of HAI stuff. It'll be interesting to see what they release. No idea how long it will be though.

 

[rsw686]

I think the majority of HAI users are gonna suggest Haiku.
I use Elve and am curious about the problems you described. Can you expand on them?? I have never seen any type of issue with my touchscreens and I use some pretty elaborate screens. I'm not suggesting you use Elve, as you said it's pretty much dead at this point, so if you don't want to go into it further then that's fine. You just piqued my curiosity is all.
 
You may want to hold off a while before deciding. Looks like Leviton is trying to head in the direction of a full system, meaning front end included, with their new line of HAI stuff. It'll be interesting to see what they release. No idea how long it will be though.

 
The Elve issue might be my fault then. I have been testing various software in a VM and I never thought to look at the CPU / memory resources when the screens were slow loading. Elve doesn't show the thermostat status either for (off, cooling, heating, etc). The other issue is my outdoor temperature sensor would only show 0. It seems that Elve doesn't poll the OmniPro when starting so until an area, zone status changes it won't see it and shows unknown. This might be why the temp sensor was showing 0.

 

[Dean Roddey]

The text is a minor annoyance. On the CQC field browser Sem Type: is only showing half the e and m:. If I name a zone more than 6 or so characters the arming, status, and latched is cut off in the list. The window is allowed to be resized, but none of the controls resize. Additionally this is the only window where hitting Esc won't close it.

I'll look into it.
 

Honestly I was getting frustrated from having to watch the video tutorials to understand how CQC works. I've always been able to get a product basically up and running without consulting the manual.

I guess part of it is that CQC is not really about basic getting something up and running. It's a pro level system designed to create high quality, full service solutions. As with other such products, you have to put something into it to get something out of it, but once you do make the effort, the flexibility is very high.
 
 

There are a few other things:
 
1. Having to pay for the iPhone / iPad app. The CQC tier already limits the number of clients. If I have a guest over for the weekend it would be nice if they could use their device to control their room, etc. Additionally I can't test the functionality before committing to purchasing.

The iPad app is third party, so we don't really have much say on that front.
 

2. HAI OmniPro driver is missing the ability to view / act on the thermostat status Off, Cooling, Heating, Dehumidifying, Humidifying. See page 23 (19 if looking at written page numbers) on the OmniLink II Protocol Reference.

That's obviously something added since the last Omni driver update. We do support the thermo mode, but at the protocol version we currently have implemented the values are Heat, Cool, Auto, and Emergency Heat.
 

3. The room configuration only allows 4 lighting loads to be assigned. I'm assuming I can manually place more on the screens.

That's per room of course. Partly it was due to space restrictions on the generated interfaces. But, now that we support gestures and inertial scrolling and all that, that stuff will be updated for the next release since we can now just create scrollable areas of fixed size for such things and have however many are needed.
 

4. I have read in a few places that the iPhone / iPad can't have IP video feeds displayed. Is this still an issue?

Not in the same way that you can on the regular interface viewer. This is something that is due for fixing in the next release, in the guise of a completely re-worked RIVA system (which is what the iOS/Android clients work through.) But, in the meantime, you could use the RIVACmd action command, and I think that the iPad app allows you to invoke a browser. Ask on the forums in the iOS section.
 

5. A small annoyance is the administer local client driver for the HAI OmniPro doesn't have a Get Names button to pull the area, zone, and thermostat names from the controller.

Yeh, this is something on the very long list to do. Of course they might have to be modified somewhat to make them legal, and I'm not sure if the Omni interface prevents you from creating dups.
 

6. I have been debating on trying out RadioRA2 and only the Lutron Homeworks has an administer local client driver interface, not the RadioRA2 IP driver. I would have to edit the config in a text file, which doesn't feel polished.

We'll do a client side interface for it soon. Often it's best to let these things cook for a while to get up to a fairly full set of features, and do it in a way that let's us add new features quickly, and get them out without having to wait for a new CQC release. Once it's fully baked, then we can do a client side driver for it. The Lutron RA2 driver was added in the previous version and has been getting updated pretty regularly. But pretty soon we can get a client side interface for it.
 
But, in the larger scheme of things, it's not like you are changing your configuration on a daily basis. What is most important for the actual solution is a solid driver, and a system that lets you build what you want on top of it, which we do provide. It would be crazy to not buy or to use the RA2 driver because of such a small thing. It's a pretty piddly issue compared to the huge number of other issues involved.

 

[Dean Roddey]

OK, the field browser display issues are fixed and the window is resizable now. That'll be in the next beta drop and in the soon to arrive 4.4 release.

 

[pinballmark]

OK, the field browser display issues are fixed and the window is resizable now. That'll be in the next beta drop and in the soon to arrive 4.4 release.

This sort of responsiveness is why I went with CQC.

 

[rsw686]

Dean, your customer service is top notch and I haven't even purchased the product yet! Thanks for fixing the minor field browser display issue. Being in the IT industry I do understand the complexity and appreciate the work that has gone into CQC. Part of my job is programming our internal use applications in C#, which probably makes me more critical.
 
For the thermostat it is not the mode I am after, but the status of the system. The status shows if the thermostat is calling for heating or cooling from the HVAC unit. For example the mode is set to auto and the status is off. Once the temp goes above the cool set point the status would change to cooling. The five options are off, cooling, heating, humidifying, and dehumidifying. Have this capability would allow the touch screen to show if the HVAC system is currently running. Additionally I could create an events to warn of an HVAC failure based on the status showing cooling and the outdoor condenser showing low or no current draw, etc. If you do get around to adding this the current humidity level and set points would be nice as well.
 
I didn't realize the iPad application was created by a third party. If I understand correctly the current RIVA system allows for IP cameras to be shown with the Windows viewer only. A future release will add the ability for iOS and Android assuming those app developers update their products.

 

[Dean Roddey]

On Windows the RIVA system isn't used. There you'd use our full Intf.Viewer client. There is a Windows RIVA client, and you might choose to use that on the road or something, since it only requires access to one port. But generally you'd use our full IV for Windows clients.
 
Currently, the RIVA protocol just redirects graphics commands to the clients, who draw them. Since a web widget contains a web browser window, that's not graphics commands that we do, therefore we can't redirect them under the current RIVA protocol.
 
The big ticket item for the next release, likely to be called 5.0, is a complete rework of how the IV works, so as to put RIVA clients on an equal footing, get fully local scrolling on RIVA clients, let them do their own drawing locally, and so forth. In that scheme, RIVA clients would know the types of widgets and, where necessary, can special case them. The web browser widget would be one of those special cases, so that RIVA clients can create a web browser window where that widget would be.
 
It does of course require that the clients be able to do such things, i.e. create a frameless web browser and place it where it wants, and that doing so doesn't stop the RIVA client from working (multi-tasking abilities.) But, AFAIK, that is doable on Android and iOS.  It would also of course require that the vendors of those products implement that support, which we can't make them do. But that's a much wanted feature so I think that they would.

 

[ano]

I have CQC and Haiku, and they both have their pluses and minuses. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd recommend either for very advanced control.  CQC is fine until you have to learn the proprietary language for moderately advanced things. Unless programming was your profession or have lots of time, I don't recommend it, but in the defense of CQC you can do lots without programming.  And I haven't really seen many (if any) updates to the HAI driver in years, so nothing introduced in the last few years is supported, like User Variables, Humidity support, device power consumption, etc.
 
Haiku and Haiku are great for iPads and the iPhone, I could not live without it.  And can support rather simple programming, BUT the fact that it doesn't directly support hardware devices is a BIG negative in my book. I use my UPB on CQC 1000X more than HAI UPB even now in theory both can control UPB. Can Haiku be made to support things like caller ID modems, Denon receiver, LED signs? I can't say its impossible, but its going to take lots of time.  And honestly, even being being a "Mac person" it will never support all the legacy devices a PC can. I must 10 serial ports on my CQC machine.
 
CQC is best for in-home panels, but to be honest, I think those are on the way out in favor of iPads and tablets. CQC support for iPads is weak. So like most things it really depends what you are looking for, and your programming background. As for others, ELVE seems to have pettered-out and last time I checked HomeSeer has the same serial connection to HAI it had 10 years ago when I used it.  If that sounds bad, it is.
 
So its 5 of one and three and two of another.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Hence why I indicated above that the next release is going to be a huge effort to get our (very powerful) user interface system onto a more equal footing among Windows, Android, and iOS. The Windows IV will always have a slight edge, because it's usually wired, usually running on higher performance hardware, and it doesn't have to deal with translation to another operating system. But we will get the RIVA clients much, much closer next time around. And they will be able to have a native interaction scheme on each platform.
 
BTW, I don't think that in-home panels are going anywhere. Lots of people still use them, though often in conjunction with various portables. It's very nice, now matter how many phones you have, to have an always on, wired network, large screen real estate wall panel available, that you can always count on. We also let you use it as a picture show as well, which can be nice. And any of the regular IVs can be TTS servers also, which can have its uses.
 
And in the commercial arena, like POS type solutions or kiosks and such, it's still very much important to have strong support for wired clients.

 

[jdk972003]

I am in the exact same boat.  Have been for 2 years!  I just do not have the time to get into the meat of CQC and I have discovered I just do not approach software/programs from whatever perspective CQC was designed for.  I am probably much more the general user type who expects things to be intuitive and natural.  I am not an Apple fan, but the reality is I get why they are successful.  iOS feels like it was created from the end user experience (that user starting with zero knowledge of how it works).  As a non programmer, I have to tell you CQC feels like a tough nut to crack.  It really is counter intuitive at times (from a layman's view).  That has nothing to do with its capabilities and support which are outstanding from everything I have seen or tried.  I guess as Dean mentioned, it feels like it was never really targeted at the average end user (consumer) like HS.  (Elve is off my list due to lack of communication and support)
 
The best way to explain it would be my experience trying to create my first touch screen during my HS and CQC testing. (This is as best as I can recall...it was over a year ago)
 
HS -  Saw some examples from other users.  I created a great touch screen stack in HStouch in about 2 hours. without ever watching a video or asking a questions.  Had custom graphics, multiple tabs, sliders, etc (minimal testing but worked fairly well although I am sure HSTouch would have bugs with more thorough testing)  I would have to redesign the layout for every possible resolution of the devices that might be used. Somewhat expected.
 
CQC - Saw some examples from other users.  I reviewed how it worked.  Wow I can use anything as a background, button etc.  great possibilities, better than HStouch by far!  I then spent 30 min wondering why I couldn't see any of the graphics I wanted to use from the folder view within the designer.   I had to watch the video (twice)  to realize I had to import graphics into CQC first.  That's just NUTS in my way of thinking.  I mean for years I open a window to search folders on my computer to find my file, jpg etc. Never occurred to me the program was more a sandbox.  I understand it after the fact; I even appreciate the possible reasons, but its not the natural way I use windows.  That's just a single example...and probably not a great one.  I just remember because I was so pissed at myself and then at CQC. Ug!  I did not even look into what it would take to design interfaces for RIVA and iOS.  Never designed more than a single screen.
 
I think HS2 (HS3 is way Beta at this point)  is probably more user intuitive and CQC is more robust.  Sadly, my wife cares little for how robust or good the support is.  She wants the system to be just like her phone - great graphics, simple layout, intuitive flow, and it just works which means the interface design is as important as the backbone.  Elve was top of my list until the owner just moved on due to work.  My gut says go CQC, but just thinking about trying to adjust my way of thinking just for the software is giving me a headache.
 
For you being a programmer, i would say CQC is your choice.  Look what Dean has already done just in this thread in support.
 
As an FYI - Pete_c  is on HS and Cocoontech.  He is having a Linux driver developed for the HAI Omnipro that HS3 will be able to use.  Another strong possibility but no idea on HS3 timeline.
 
Jon