Which software automation to go with HAI

[ano]

Hence why I indicated above that the next release is going to be a huge effort to get our (very powerful) user interface system onto a more equal footing among Windows, Android, and iOS. The Windows IV will always have a slight edge, because it's usually wired, usually running on higher performance hardware, and it doesn't have to deal with translation to another operating system. But we will get the RIVA clients much, much closer next time around. And they will be able to have a native interaction scheme on each platform.
 
BTW, I don't think that in-home panels are going anywhere. Lots of people still use them, though often in conjunction with various portables. It's very nice, now matter how many phones you have, to have an always on, wired network, large screen real estate wall panel available, that you can always count on. We also let you use it as a picture show as well, which can be nice. And any of the regular IVs can be TTS servers also, which can have its uses.
 
And in the commercial arena, like POS type solutions or kiosks and such, it's still very much important to have strong support for wired clients.

I don't disagree. High-end homes especially will continue to have wired wall panels. I bought one but never installed it.  For me an iPad and possibly voice is easier than getting up and walking to a panel. 
 
But with CQC, panels and high-end stuff is great, but sometimes, as others have pointed out, I feel the expected stuff is ignored.  I've been waiting years for CQC to have a log file that contains more than 4 or 5 hours of logs.  And the HAI driver badly needs updating. Not as sexy as 3D animated graphics on a wired touchscreen, I know, but important never-the-less. But at least CQC has an ethernet connection to HAI.  HomeSeer doesn't so until they change that, HomeSeer and HAI are going to be problematic together.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Ultimately it has to be about area under the curve. No matter how much any given customer thinks that X is important, there are orders of magnitude more who thing that A through T are vastly more important and X is a frivolous waste of time. And vice versa of course. It's impossible to make everyone happy.
 
But of course some people get very microscopic about certain features and will ignore a product of vast potential because it won't do one thing they want, and may choose a far lesser product that does.
 
That's just the nature of this business I guess. The Omni driver will be gotten back to before long.

 

[Dean Roddey]

CQC - Saw some examples from other users.  I reviewed how it worked.  Wow I can use anything as a background, button etc.  great possibilities, better than HStouch by far!  I then spent 30 min wondering why I couldn't see any of the graphics I wanted to use from the folder view within the designer.   I had to watch the video (twice)  to realize I had to import graphics into CQC first.  That's just NUTS in my way of thinking.  I mean for years I open a window to search folders on my computer to find my file, jpg etc. Never occurred to me the program was more a sandbox.  I understand it after the fact; I even appreciate the possible reasons, but its not the natural way I use windows.  That's just a single example...and probably not a great one.  I just remember because I was so pissed at myself and then at CQC. Ug!  I did not even look into what it would take to design interfaces for RIVA and iOS.  Never designed more than a single screen.

Jon

 
CQC is a networked product. Clients all around the network have to be able to get any resources that they have been configured to use, and to be able to find them without the user having to tell them where they are. And of course the whole  needs be secure and multi-user capable as well, and it allows you to configure the system from any machine. None of that would be possible if you were just using local resources on the machine where you were designing something. Not to mention, how would your iPad or Android tablets know where find those images.
 
They could of course be copied into every interface template you created, but then if you decided to change an image, you'd have to go find every template that uses that image and change it. And of course it wouldn't allow clients to cache images for huge performance benefits because they'd end up downloading them redundantly in every interface template they accessed. 
 
So there are definitely very good reasons for it being the way it is.

 

[picta]

I have CQC and Haiku, and they both have their pluses and minuses. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd recommend either for very advanced control.

 
I would say it is not a question of either/or, it is best to have both for advanced control. I view HaikuHelper as a great interface to Omni panels, with an easy API (json) that allows you to integrate it with other systems. I have it integrated with my software controller (HS2) as one of many other "drivers". I can also use Haiku interface to show/control other devices that are connected to HS2, so one day it may become my main UI for everything. I am not sure how easy it is to write a driver for CQC, but if it is doable, that would make a very powerful combination.

 

[jdk972003]

I understand Dean...totally get there are very good whys, etc.  Makes a lot of sense and is what makes CQC so robust.
 
From the view of an end user (at least this end user) it would make more sense for that all to be behind the scenes.  i.e. the file view sees all compatible graphics on the computer and when one is chosen, CQC imports it for you.  This way the backbone does everything you want now, but without an end user having to change they way they naturally interact with MS software.  Then every time they look for a graphic, the first view would be those graphics already in use on the project in Icon format.   And as I said, it was just an example.
 
As another example lets use your graphics point.  If all versions of the same graphic were imported with a naming convention by CQC, then when someone wanted to change that graphic on their interface, CQC would do what outlook does on a recurring calendar event edit and ask.... "This is a multiple use graphic.  Change just this instance or all instances?"  Take it a step farther and your naming convention could include resolution/size parameters which CQC could automatically adjust the new graphic for in each instance of use.  I know there is a lot more involved with scaling etc, but I think you get the gist.  Intuitive design / interface.
 
I guess my key point is interface is where the client meets the system.  iOS has proved if nothing else, that interface is as important as the backbone.  Elves popularity in such a short time frame of the HA world supports that since its strength was its screens.  That means the ability / tools to design such an interface are as important to software's success as the robustness.  I just feel this is where CQC has room to increase market share from HS.  The CQC system is by far the most robust and well supported.  Be great if it was the most natural to work with for joe schmoe (me!) as well.
 
I also know you heard a lot of this before, hence the automated screen builder etc so please do not take it as harping.  Just thinking "out loud".
 
As I said, i think for the OP, CQC is the right choice.  I think it may be for me as well, but with my lack of time I am hesitant to dig in.

 

[pete_c]

Regarding the new HAI HS Linux plugin personally looking initially to make the plugin "self sustaining" utilizing diagnostics to check on transport between the plugin and the HAI panel. (most likely a diagnostic gui of sorts built into it).   I am not writing the plugin.  I am helping in the development of the plugin.  It is being written by a long time Homeseer seasoned "obiwan". 
 
Currently have two hardware boxes both running HS2 (doing well), one hardware box running HS3 and a new one which will be running HS3 for Linux.  Test touchscreens (also use untouched HSTouch clients) number 15 right now.  Similiar screens all over the house.  Backlighting is shut off ever night and turned on in the morning.  Screen savers are old home movies or pictures.  Some of the machines are suspended at night and woken up in the morning.  There are events which also "touch" the touchscreens such that a certain CCTV camera view comes up, motion detection status, CID, storm alerts, so for and so on.  Some machines backlights remain off until you touch them or walk by them.  These are currently all tests such that I have some three in the master bedroom (plus one omnitouch on the wall)  driving WAF low, same mutlitouch stuff going on everywhere in the house lately.
 
I am into speed and benchmarking the performance to the HAI PCA, OmnitouchPro and HAI Snaplink applications.
 
AFTER that piece has been throughly tested then on to the HS3 to Plugin conduit.  Then from there benchmarking the HSTouch to HAI panel dynamic variable responses.  Again benchmarking it to the HAI products.  BTW this is not happening right away and moving to testing the linux plugin with the linux version of HS3.  I did order a ZEE and expect shipment any day now.  I do push the HSTouch screens with video, sound and sometimes very cluttered screens as I am always trying to fit as much (many variables) as can be read using too small of a font size.  Always though trying to break it.
 
I am picky about response times from the panel to the end console whatever it may be.   That and I have been "testing" the mcsSprinkler linux application for some 2-3 years on a Seagate Dockstar.  It runs 24/7; never do anything to it; never runs out of memory always is working; but I don't notice it anymore. 
 
Then again I also keep my HS Touch clocks ticking by the second such that I can see performance hits or misses which concurrenlty running on touchscreen events, or HS3 based events.  Also mixed in some flash stuff. 
This actually causes much grief and is low on the WAF (TMI on one screen is good for me and bad for her).

 

[rsw686]

With the cost of Android and iOS tablets I can't see myself purchasing Windows touchscreens. I might get a Windows 8 tablet, but that would be it. For example the HP Slate 21 is $400 with a 21" display running Android.
 
I can get over CQC being complex, but it feels slightly dated for the price tag. I would need to go with at least the Silver level which is $449. I want the iOS and Android devices to feel responsive like they do with regular apps. The CQC client should know which objects are buttons. Feedback should be instant while sending off the command. It also needs a built in IP camera viewer and ideally the video tunneled through the CQC server. This would allow only opening of a few ports to a single IP. Currently when remote I VPN to view the cameras in Haiku. If the next CQC release addresses these issues I will be first in line to purchase.

 

[rsw686]

Regarding the new HAI HS Linux plugin personally looking initially to make the plugin "self sustaining" utilizing diagnostics to check on transport between the plugin and the HAI panel. (most likely a diagnostic gui of sorts built into it).   I am not writing the plugin.  I am helping in the development of the plugin.  It is being written by a long time Homeseer seasoned "obiwan". 

 
I thought HS only ran on Windows. What is the reasoning behind writing the plugin on Linux? Wouldn't it be ideal to load the plugins onto the same box running HS for reliability and ease of use? I read that HS supports plugins in C#. HAI has a C# SDK that should allow easy integration without the low level coding.

 

[rsw686]

I just installed the HS3 beta. Honestly I am not impressed. You have to keep the window open for it to run as it is not a Windows service. Additionally the web interface feels clunky. None of the plugins I looked at have IP support only serial. I really don't need any more Sena LS110 serial to Ethernet converters. While they work well with UPStart, etc it just adds one more piece to the puzzle.
 
I tested Elve again and the touchscreen are still not as responsive as I would like. With CQC the Windows client provides near instant feedback. The RIVA client is slower, but still faster than Elve.
 
It looks like CQC is really the only DIY option. I'm undecided if I will purchase now or wait for the next update to be released. I'm interested in what Leviton / HAI is going to release. They must be getting close as homeauto.com just started redirecting to leviton.com. Their new touchscreen is pricey, but the interface looks nice.

 

[pete_c]

I thought HS only ran on Windows. What is the reasoning behind writing the plugin on Linux? Wouldn't it be ideal to load the plugins onto the same box running HS for reliability and ease of use? I read that HS supports plugins in C#. HAI has a C# SDK that should allow easy integration without the low level coding..

Today my HS boxes are running on wintel.  All of the plugins load and run from their propective boxes.  That said though I have some 16 serial and 7 USB devices plugged into Homeseer.   
 
BTW - The HS Touchscreen designer will talk to any flavor of Wintel (today using just a sort of embedded XP and CE), Android, Linux  or iOS tablets.  My "test" tabletop tablets run Wintel, Android and Linux just fine.  I have tested the HSTouch client on three OS's.  I have been mostly running wintel (sort of embedded) and Linux on these tabletop "play" clients.  (mostly related to the drivers and the hardware and best means to talk to the hardware).  Historically though did play with the Chumby; doing a chroot redoing the OS and used RDP to multiple wintel clients set up on a terminal server.  It did work well considering the hardware that was in the Chumby.  I also played with a custom HS flashed based client that worked and a CT users flash based DIY your own screens client which worked just fine using XPL.  (that and another client that used flash and xAP.)
 
I am not sure that there exists today another automation touch screen designer that talks to multiple OS clients.  
 
Part of the new HS3 stuff is to allow plugins to run on separate pieces of hardware with a conduit to HS3.
 
I have been using Homeseer now since around 1998 (15 years); it's function and flexibility is sort of ingrained in my head.
 
Today said mentioned hardware topology works for me virtually (in a VM) or via a network connection whether its RS-232 or USB.  Any of the analog to digital connected HS plugins work in a similiar fashion.
 
The two currently running HS2 boxes utilize only one USB cable to one Digi USB 7 port hub to multiple USB devices and two Digi 8 port Edgeports.  I have also used the Digi USB Anywhere with this combo and it works fine.
 
Linux; because I like linux and over the last few years (lets say some 15-20 years) my "linux" things run like the everyready energy bunnies. 
 
The new Homeseer Linux Zee is a Linux based HS3 device.  The HAI Homeseer plugin in linux will run on either the Zee or on whatever (appliance or just software linux box).  It is being built to independantly connect to the HAI panel. 
 
I liked the HAI logger application that you let me use and sort of using that methodology for the Linux plugin.  I am still using it and have the hailogger just talking to a remote mysql DB.  Your HAI Logger actually gave me the idea for the Linux based HS plugin; initially to run independantly of HS then to create the plugin conduit for Homeseer.  BTW the logger has never broke and continues to function just fine.
 
Yes and the HAI SDK is currently being utilized for said plugin.  The DB will reside with the plugin. 

 

[jlehnert]

Glad to see someone is looking at getting HS3 to connect to the HAI systems.  I lost all interest in HS3 when I found out they weren't going to support HAI at all.  I'm about to cough up some serious $$$ to move my entire system from X10 to Z-Wave, and was not looking forward to the added $ and time to completely replace HS.

 

[cxigaming]

Home Commander+ is a powerful, yet easy to use app that allows you to control your RadioRa 2 lighting control systems.
It has been built for the best user experience over the default app

Features:
- Control lights, keypads, blinds and ceiling fan anywhere in your home.
- Control your temperature on your Lutron HVAC controller.
- Works over LTE and WIFI.
- Advance Off timer system to automatically turn off your light.
- Favorite buttons for quick access of all your most used devices.
- Turn off all lights in your home with a single button click.
- Customizable Eco mode to help you be more energy conscience.
- Passcode lock app protection.
- Customize everything on your device from the icon, name, defaults, etc..
- Fully customizable sorting areas, devices and floor level of devices.
- Floor and On/Off filtering system to easily find and see your devices.
- Automatically finds Main Repeater for easier installation.

Coming Soon Future Features:
- Phantom key full access.
- Security system integration.
- Other HVAC integration such as the Nest.
- Philips Hue integration.

AppStore Link Below
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/home-commander+/id737395924?mt=8

 

[fcwilt]

I've tried HS2 (and HS3), MainLobby and CQC.
 
HSx allows you to control things right after install so it may seem "user friendly". But HS3 is (as far as I can tell) a mess. And not being a service? Who's idea was that????
 
MainLobby for a long time used Flash and the UI editor was... well it could have been much better. I think they are moving away from that but I have not followed their progress.
 
CQC is first rate. It has very good versatility. Dean is a great person. He has made some design choices that drive me crazy but you can get used to them I suppose.
 
 
I have kept my licenses for all of the above current in case one of them surges ahead and clearly becomes the front runner.
 
But for now the only one I would be comfortable suggesting at this time would be CQC.
 
 
On the other hand if you want something that works more or less "out of the box" there are hardware based solutions that might be of interest to you.

 

[Deane Johnson]

Great discussion guys.  I'm an Elve user, and like it very much.  However, I too feel abandoned and frozen in time.  A disappointing end to a great piece of HA software.
 
I've tried Homeseer, read a lot of posts on their forum, and have concluded it's a mess, just as described in an earlier post in this thead.
 
CQC looks very interresting, and I certainly have a great deal of respect for Dean Roddy.  Since I use mine to control my front projection home theater and all of the components with an iPad, I'm a little alarmed with the comments about CQC being weak on iPad design.  I'm also a little concerned as to what the iPad screen design capabilities are.  Elve was (is) very good in this regard.  I didn't find much on the CGC website about screen design, so that sort of suggested it might be weak.
 
Dean's candid approach to sharing his thoughts and views on this forum give me a lot of encouragement to try CQC.  My own skill to master it, not so much.

 

[picta]

Have you seen Haiku and HaikuHelper? Great software for iOS devices, but the server side only runs on mac OS.