BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
Yea, but do they ever get "right side up" again? B)KenM said:
Z-Wave vs Insteon - Opinions?
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
BraveSirRobbin
Moderator
That's good becaue we do not allow those types on our board! B)KenM said:
(I can't tell you how many times a day we turn those people down).
johnnynine
Active Member
If it isn't too much trouble, could you please give a brief but more detailed explanation of Z-Wave's enrollment if you have secondary controllers. I have several insteon devices and am havng enough troubles with the insteon switches to look deeper into Z-Wave.KenM said:
Thanks,
Johnny
johnnynine
Active Member
Also, here is a big question of mine in regards to tactile feel and response of the Z-Wave switches compared to Insteon. As I have mentioned before the Insteon dimmer switches ignore you if you click the paddle to quickly to turn on or off a light. (This happens at least 40% of the time for me... I can't stress enough my displeasure in this).
So this leads me to 2 questions:
1. Insteon switches feel as though they have micro-switches underneath the paddles. Upon pressing an Insteon paddle you can feel and hear the little switch. Can you please describe any differences in the feel and sound of the Z-Wave switch.
2. When I turn on an Insteon dimmer there is (as expected) not an immediate response from the light (even from the local switch)... however it is quite acceptable. Can you please compare the delay in response from a z-wave switch to that of an Insteon switch? (just a rough example would be great).
Thanks again.
Johnny
So this leads me to 2 questions:
1. Insteon switches feel as though they have micro-switches underneath the paddles. Upon pressing an Insteon paddle you can feel and hear the little switch. Can you please describe any differences in the feel and sound of the Z-Wave switch.
2. When I turn on an Insteon dimmer there is (as expected) not an immediate response from the light (even from the local switch)... however it is quite acceptable. Can you please compare the delay in response from a z-wave switch to that of an Insteon switch? (just a rough example would be great).
Thanks again.
Johnny
ChrisWalker
Active Member
Johnny,
One of the nice things regarding Z-Wave is that a lot of manufacturers are competing for your business...so there's bound to be a switch that responds the way you want here.
All of the Z-Wave switches I've personally tested respond even when you tap on them very briefly. Additionally, a number of the dimmer switches have a brief "ramp up" period where they may not seem to respond for a moment, but they are really brightening the bulb.
Finally, I haven't paid a lot of attention but I did notice that the Intermatic HA06 dimmers "click" when you turn them on or off. Not loudly, but enough to let you know you actually pushed the button. It's a good effect.
Chris
One of the nice things regarding Z-Wave is that a lot of manufacturers are competing for your business...so there's bound to be a switch that responds the way you want here.
All of the Z-Wave switches I've personally tested respond even when you tap on them very briefly. Additionally, a number of the dimmer switches have a brief "ramp up" period where they may not seem to respond for a moment, but they are really brightening the bulb.
Finally, I haven't paid a lot of attention but I did notice that the Intermatic HA06 dimmers "click" when you turn them on or off. Not loudly, but enough to let you know you actually pushed the button. It's a good effect.
Chris
upstatemike
Senior Member
I had some switches that acted this way and found they were actually defective switches. Smarthome replaced mine and now the "local control" problem is solved. Did you get your bad switches replaced to see if that solved the tactile issues?johnnynine said:
KenM
Active Member
Johnny,
The Intermatic ZDW100s (wall dimmer switches) that I have tested have a more solid click than my Insteon dimmers. The ZDW100s do have a fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second. They also memorize the last on level so that if you dim one to 80%, turn it off, then tap it on, it will come up to 80%. You need to hold the paddle to get to full bright again.
I have some HomePro switches due in next week to make a comparison with.
Something I noticed with the HA09 remote control. When you press a button, the commands do not go out until you release it or have held it down for about three seconds. If you hold a button down waiting for something to happen you may be dissapointed with the three second wait. If you press and release then the command goes out immediately. That was something my wife and I got used to quickly. The convience of having a truely portable remote for the lights is a big plus.
As Chris said, the different manufacturers have slightly different options. The problem I see with that right now is that the options do not seem to be described too clearly. If I was doing a large house I would order a couple of different types to make a comparison prior to commiting to a large purchase.
To 'enroll' or 'remove' a device with the network you (with the HA09) slide the cover to reveal two hidden buttons. Press and release the 'include' or 'delete' button, a LED starts flashing, then press the button on your slave device. Done. You can only enroll or remove devices with your primary controller.
To assign or deassign a device to a button, hold down the 'on' and 'off' buttons on that channel until the LED flashes, then press and hold the 'include' or 'delete' button on the remote and tap the switch on your slave device. You are able to program an 'on level' by holding down the 'include' button, ramping your slave device to the desired level, and releasing the include button.
It get easy after you do one or two.
Ken
Edit:
To use secondary controllers, there are two buttons to press on each device to copy the primary controller's network memory into the secondary one's. Then you may go ahead and set up button assignments on the secondary. If you add and remove devices a lot this could be a pain in that you are advised to re-copy the memory into the secondary after any network changes.
k
The Intermatic ZDW100s (wall dimmer switches) that I have tested have a more solid click than my Insteon dimmers. The ZDW100s do have a fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second. They also memorize the last on level so that if you dim one to 80%, turn it off, then tap it on, it will come up to 80%. You need to hold the paddle to get to full bright again.
I have some HomePro switches due in next week to make a comparison with.
Something I noticed with the HA09 remote control. When you press a button, the commands do not go out until you release it or have held it down for about three seconds. If you hold a button down waiting for something to happen you may be dissapointed with the three second wait. If you press and release then the command goes out immediately. That was something my wife and I got used to quickly. The convience of having a truely portable remote for the lights is a big plus.
As Chris said, the different manufacturers have slightly different options. The problem I see with that right now is that the options do not seem to be described too clearly. If I was doing a large house I would order a couple of different types to make a comparison prior to commiting to a large purchase.
To 'enroll' or 'remove' a device with the network you (with the HA09) slide the cover to reveal two hidden buttons. Press and release the 'include' or 'delete' button, a LED starts flashing, then press the button on your slave device. Done. You can only enroll or remove devices with your primary controller.
To assign or deassign a device to a button, hold down the 'on' and 'off' buttons on that channel until the LED flashes, then press and hold the 'include' or 'delete' button on the remote and tap the switch on your slave device. You are able to program an 'on level' by holding down the 'include' button, ramping your slave device to the desired level, and releasing the include button.
It get easy after you do one or two.
Ken
Edit:
To use secondary controllers, there are two buttons to press on each device to copy the primary controller's network memory into the secondary one's. Then you may go ahead and set up button assignments on the secondary. If you add and remove devices a lot this could be a pain in that you are advised to re-copy the memory into the secondary after any network changes.
k
Hi KenM,
I am in a similar situations as your, so I am glad you are starting this trial and thread here. I am considering moving from UPB to ZWave and I just ordered some hardware to test them out also. My problem with UPB is that I want to install them in loft buildings which mostly require a 3phase couplers. The added cost and potential complication is now steering me back to wireless devices. Since it seems there there are more zwave devices coming online, I thought I'll give that a try. I do love the UPB free programming software -- it is so easy to setup a network and scenes. And ZWave have nothing right now.
One quick question for you -- because we are also looking into writing some additional software for ZWave, is there any documentation available on the "command level" protocol? I will order the controlThink SDK as well, but I am not sure if their .net API equals the actual command set available.
I am in a similar situations as your, so I am glad you are starting this trial and thread here. I am considering moving from UPB to ZWave and I just ordered some hardware to test them out also. My problem with UPB is that I want to install them in loft buildings which mostly require a 3phase couplers. The added cost and potential complication is now steering me back to wireless devices. Since it seems there there are more zwave devices coming online, I thought I'll give that a try. I do love the UPB free programming software -- it is so easy to setup a network and scenes. And ZWave have nothing right now.
One quick question for you -- because we are also looking into writing some additional software for ZWave, is there any documentation available on the "command level" protocol? I will order the controlThink SDK as well, but I am not sure if their .net API equals the actual command set available.
KenM
Active Member
Johnny,
I forgot to add, switching 'on' and 'off' an appliance module from the remote seems 'instant' to me. Spookily instant, if you know what I mean (too darned quick).
I put one of my appliance modules on a 25 watt CFL in my kitchen, about 20 feet away (my house is small). I was then able to make this thing switch on and off at something less than a one second rate with my little remote.
Just one 'press and release' will be instant, more than Insteon, in my opinion. I was able to press the thing, too fast, and have to wait several seconds before I could input a normal command again. That would be the limitations of my little remote.
To me, the important part of this test was that CFL switching seemed to have no effect on the Z-Wave reliability.
The last HA 'stuff' I have used would not even switch CFLs without burning out.
Ken
edit:
'spookily' is not a real word. If I had to think up a ghostly adjective / adverb, 'spookily' would be it though.
I did put 3 appliance modules on one remote control 'scene' and they all switched at the same time (from my point of view).
I forgot to add, switching 'on' and 'off' an appliance module from the remote seems 'instant' to me. Spookily instant, if you know what I mean (too darned quick).
I put one of my appliance modules on a 25 watt CFL in my kitchen, about 20 feet away (my house is small). I was then able to make this thing switch on and off at something less than a one second rate with my little remote.
Just one 'press and release' will be instant, more than Insteon, in my opinion. I was able to press the thing, too fast, and have to wait several seconds before I could input a normal command again. That would be the limitations of my little remote.
To me, the important part of this test was that CFL switching seemed to have no effect on the Z-Wave reliability.
The last HA 'stuff' I have used would not even switch CFLs without burning out.
Ken
edit:
'spookily' is not a real word. If I had to think up a ghostly adjective / adverb, 'spookily' would be it though.
I did put 3 appliance modules on one remote control 'scene' and they all switched at the same time (from my point of view).
I have been watching this thread because I went thru the same evaluation a couple of months ago. After going to EHX and talking with many people there, including Martin from Automated Outlet, I decided to go with UPB switches from Simply Automated.
[plug] Martin, and now Jim, have been very helpful when I have had questions about how to accomplish a specific HA task and they have everything you need. Also, Jim's house is probablly a showcase for HA. He has done and can explain all kinds of neat HA tasks. Just have your CC in hand when you call.
[/plug]
My main concern was that I had converted 95% of my house to CFLs over the last year and had heard the horror stories about them "killing" switches. Well my UPB environment is rock solid. I have about a dozen CFL loads on it including the front outside circuit which has 5 13 watt CFLs.
I must admit that the delay when manually activating a switch is a little annoying, but when the lights are controlled by HS or the Elk, they are near instant. It would really be nice if there was a way to set the switches into "instant" mode once they have been programmed.
Larry in Denver
[plug] Martin, and now Jim, have been very helpful when I have had questions about how to accomplish a specific HA task and they have everything you need. Also, Jim's house is probablly a showcase for HA. He has done and can explain all kinds of neat HA tasks. Just have your CC in hand when you call.
[/plug]My main concern was that I had converted 95% of my house to CFLs over the last year and had heard the horror stories about them "killing" switches. Well my UPB environment is rock solid. I have about a dozen CFL loads on it including the front outside circuit which has 5 13 watt CFLs.
I must admit that the delay when manually activating a switch is a little annoying, but when the lights are controlled by HS or the Elk, they are near instant. It would really be nice if there was a way to set the switches into "instant" mode once they have been programmed.
Larry in Denver
upstatemike
Senior Member
I thought there was talk at one time of adding the option to disable the double tap feature if you didn't need it and preferred a faster local response.
markthomas
Active Member
There was "talk" but that's about it. I talked to Web Mountain (one of the UPB manufacturers), specifically requesting a feature like this, and they passed the word on to PCS... the response they got is that that PCS hasn't heard any customer demand for such a feature.upstatemike said:
I think we should all give PCS a call and request it. It's the major thing that blows my WAF with these switches.
Steve
Senior Member
This was also discussed in a chat session and Simply Automated is well aware of it. Several suggestions were offered for accessing setup without having to resort to waiting on taps. My impression was they took it seriously and were going to possibly address this in their next generation of switches. Perhaps Brad can give us an update.
