Z-Wave vs Insteon - Opinions?

[KenM]

Just curious,

Question. The people that use UPB, opinions on that? I know the switches are a little higher in price. I looked at the UPB documents, and said "wow, that's neat". It was a little above my price though. After all is said and done with Insteon, UPB may have actually been better.

ken

 

[WayneW]

Several suggestions were offered for accessing setup without having to resort to waiting on taps.

Accessing setup via 5 taps shouldn't have anything to do with the delay waiting for the second tap. The purpose of waiting for the second tap was to determine if they should do the single tap function or the double tap function. If you are taping 5 times to get into setup, you may just have to live with one of the other functions getting invoked in the process. For example when you press and hold the top of an Insteon switch for ten second to get it into linking mode, the light does turn on while you are counting to 10.

 

[scotco2727]

I will tell you where its at and that is Control4. This system is wonderful. I recently completed training to become dealer/installer and am currently working on my first system (my own home) and will be starting my first client system within the next few weeks (3,000 sq ft home). This system is designed for any size house. I have been involved with x10, upb, z-wave, homeseer, etc. going in depth with some and just tapping the surface with others. Nothing, nothing compares to Control4. Yes, its a little more costly, but worth it.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Hehe, I'm wearing a "Control 4" T-shirt as I type this! I saw their product line at CES in January here in Las Vegas. Wanted to do a review on their product, but couldn't get anyone there to answer any questions! They seemed like they really didn't want to take the time to talk to a "non-dealer". (Details HERE).

I did sit through a demo (thus the t-shirt acquisition) and they did have an impressive array of products!

 

[upstatemike]

I will tell you where its at and that is Control4. This system is wonderful. I recently completed training to become dealer/installer and am currently working on my first system (my own home) and will be starting my first client system within the next few weeks (3,000 sq ft home). This system is designed for any size house. I have been involved with x10, upb, z-wave, homeseer, etc. going in depth with some and just tapping the surface with others. Nothing, nothing compares to Control4. Yes, its a little more costly, but worth it.

Please give us more info. Control4 looks like a well thought out system but there just isn't enough detail out there to be able to compare it to other products normally discussed here.

What is the automation programming like? What can it do as compared to Homeseer or Stargate or CQC?

 

[Rupp]

Wow. I just read through this thread and it is ALL OVER THE PLACE. It started as a Insteon VS Z-Wave question and covered UPB and Control4. It was really hard to pick out the actual points of the comparison. I have both Insteon and Z-wave and have had for a while and if ramp rates and LED's are important to you then I would give a slight edge to Z-Wave. Since installation I haven't had a single Z-Wave light not respond. The devices do tend to be more expensive but once a house is equipped it's done. Having said that the cost of the Insteon switches are really nice. I tried to run my swithces in Insteon mode but the technology is only as good as the weakest software link and this is the SDM. In addition I do not want to rely on yet another piece of software to use my switches. The one thing I like about Z-Wave is there are several manufactures and so the variety of products, while slow to come, will be nice for the consumer. The Z-Wave switches have a distinct click in the switch and that is nice as well. Insteon has one really nice feature and that is the footprint of the switch. It makes a multi switch box install much easier.

 

[KenM]

Rupp,

Maybe we could get the moderator to change the title to something like 'HA devices compared - opinions?' I would agree to that.

I like the idea of everyone being able to comment on their devices and would not want to limit this to just two types. I have learned some good info in the past few days on various technologies.

I am enjoying the exchange of ideas here.

Ken

 

[upstatemike]

The footprint is one good point but my main concern with Z-wave was the whole router table maintained by each device idea. If a key switch that was doing a lot of relaying of traffic went down, wouldn't a whole bunch of other devices be dead in the water if there wasn't an alternate path within range?

Does zigbee use the same routing table concept as Z-wave? Is it the same thing at a different frequency or do they use an alternate scheme to manage the mesh network?

 

[KenM]

Hi Mike,

I'm at the far end of being an expert on Z-Wave.

My understanding is that the Z-Wave routing table is managed by the network controllers. The slaves have no idea of the routing, they just relay messages as called upon. If a slave in the main rout goes dead, the controller is supposed to be smart enough to re-rout.

I still do not know how that gets done. When I find that out I will share the info if I can. I think that each secondary controller 'learns' the network so that it can provide the routing matrix. What ever controller sent out the command will re-rout if needed. I'm just guessing on this.

Ken

 

[upstatemike]

I guess I better do some reading on Z-wave. I am ashamed to admit that I don't understand what network contrller is.

Is it just a router that you plug in and it manages the newtwork? How many of these do you need? If you want to link two switches together, can you do it directly or does the network controller have to be in the loop?

 

[KenM]

Hi again Mike,

The Z-Wave network primary controller is the only device used to add or delete devices from the network.

Any secondary controller(s) (a key pad or light switch) needs to learn the network to provide good routing info. These controllers get a copy of the main via a few key presses in the set up. They are then called secondary controllers.

Having said all of that ...

Without the BS,

Set up a primary controller, if you want remotes, go through (very easy) process of setting up any and all of your remotes.

Any controller in a Z-Wave net will have the 'knowledge' of the whole network. It is then the the responsibility of the individual controller to try different routs if the primary fails. The slaves just listen and relay messages.

Ken

edit:

The confusing thing that I have found is that:

The actual 'network' is in each controller device. The term 'controller' is some what misleading. It is not an active network controller as we would think of it, it is simply a smart routing device.

k

 

[upstatemike]

I guess I am confused because I can't really picture this primary controller. Is it like a wireless remote (I don't really use those). Can it be a keypad? Or is it more of a black box you just plug in down in the basement someplace and ignore it?

Just not sure what we are referring to here.

 

[KenM]

Mike,

The primary controller is just the first controller that was used to set up the network. In my case it is a six channel remote, it can be a static wired in black box. There are provisions to have smarter controllers that act like DNS servers on a network and allow any controller at all to add or delete slaves.

I sort of like the idea of only allowing one device to modify the network settings. If you think about a remote site. Set it up, make all of the secondary controllers necessary and then put the primary controller in a safe place. A three year old that likes to play with switches will be unable to modify the network settings. Users will still be able to modify the button assignments on their remotes but the actual network will remain unchanged.

ken

edit:

BTW,

http://www.zen-sys.com/

has some good info in Z-Wave

 

[Jay C]

I will tell you where its at and that is Control4. This system is wonderful. I recently completed training to become dealer/installer
<SNIP>
Nothing, nothing compares to Control4. Yes, its a little more costly, but worth it.

Please give us more info. Control4 looks like a well thought out system but there just isn't enough detail out there to be able to compare it to other products normally discussed here.

What is the automation programming like? What can it do as compared to Homeseer or Stargate or CQC?

Control4 is based "loosely" on Zigbee, not Zwave. Here is what I found in my research:

1. Control4 only works with Control4 not other manufacturers (from their website)
2. A Control4 light switch costs $99
3. The end user/consumer can not program any Control4 device, the local installer/rep has proprietary equipment they use.

I state loosely because of the fact that they do not support interoperability.

Of course you can read the marketing info on their website, but IMHO this is not a system meant for "hackers" and DIY'ers. It's targeted a Richie Rich that wants a slick UI and no interference issues that would affect performance.

BTW, I am really disappointed in the cost of the "Pro" Homesettings stuff. Anyone know why the jacked the price 50% on the switch?

FWIW,
Jay

 

[PlanoMike]

I just wrapped up an Insteon installation in my new home this weekend. I now have approximately 40 devices on line now and all is well. My mix is primarily Icon dimmers and on/offs with sevearl keypadlincs, switchlincs and lamp modules.

Using Powerhome software, mangaing the links is very easy. I have had no dead devices so far. One keypadlinc did some peculiar flickering of the lights if I have it set to ramp up and down; however, I went to CFLs on that circuit so ramping is no longer an option.

I also have an Elk which I have not yet interfaced to the Insteon gear. I am leaning toward using X10 mode for the Elk until it supports more than one Insteon group.

So far I feel that I made the right decision for my needs.

Mike