AutomatedOutlet
Senior Member
With the UPB switches, you can choose when you want it to be "last level" or a set level.
Z-Wave vs Insteon - Opinions?
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
johnnynine
Active Member
I reread this thread and took notes on the reviewed/mentioned items so far. I hope this is accurate (I know some of this is just some of your opinions, but they count for me.) 
I thought it could be useful to others as well.
ACT-HomePro ZDW100W wall dimmer switch
300 watts
While pressing the key for 'dim' the unit will go to full bright then dim.
wider and deeper than the Insteon devices
requires a neutral connection
standard face plate size
soft green LED on the front that is off when the light is off
memorize the last 'on level' and then come on up to that level the next time you press the switch paddle (from a full off). To get to full bright again you need to hold in the paddle a few seconds
fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second (not settable)
have a more solid click than Insteon dimmers
Intermatic remote controller HA09
comfortable to hold
about the size of a TV remote but a little heavier
have six on/off buttons that can each be set up to activate 'scenes' on up to 16 modules.
commands do not go out until you release it or have held it down for about three seconds
Intermatic appliance module HA02C
15A resistive but only at 42 watts for a Compact Fluorescent load
confirmed to handle a 40watt CF load with no problems
Intermatic HA07C portable remote
12 channels (addressable buttons)
allows a person to program timer events into the Z-Wave network
will store 28 timers
hard to see LCS in dim light (no backlight)
Intermatic HA06 dimmers
300W tungsten, 40W minimum
make "click" noise when you turn them on or off. Not loudly, but enough to let you know you actually pushed the button. It's a good effect.
soft green LED on the front that is off when the light is off
the switch is not really white in color. It is slightly off, so my white face plate does not match up with it completely.
do not require a neutral connection
'Intermatic' brandname impressed into the bottom paddle
also remembers the last on level
fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second (not settable)
Noticable/movable airgap switch below paddle.
Intermatic HA03 plug in lamp modules
two pin without a pass through outlet
ACT-HomePro ZTH100 wireless controller
more complicated to operate than the Intermatic HA07
ZTH100 will allow you to read and set the ZTT100 thermostat
allow you to associate the ZIR000 PIR (passive IR) sensor to other devices
will store 8 timers
has 64 channels (addressable buttons)
hard to see LCS in dim light (no backlight)
ZIR000 PIR motion detector
no comments yet
And am I seeing things or does the Intermatic wall switch actually have it's brand name recessed into the switch? (please tell me that's a sticker) Also how obvious is the air gap switch at the bottom? I can just see my friends coming over and saying "hey whats this do" and moving it.
edit: just added some formatting so it was readable.
edit: added some new comments
I thought it could be useful to others as well.ACT-HomePro ZDW100W wall dimmer switch
300 watts
While pressing the key for 'dim' the unit will go to full bright then dim.
wider and deeper than the Insteon devices
requires a neutral connection
standard face plate size
soft green LED on the front that is off when the light is off
memorize the last 'on level' and then come on up to that level the next time you press the switch paddle (from a full off). To get to full bright again you need to hold in the paddle a few seconds
fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second (not settable)
have a more solid click than Insteon dimmers
Intermatic remote controller HA09
comfortable to hold
about the size of a TV remote but a little heavier
have six on/off buttons that can each be set up to activate 'scenes' on up to 16 modules.
commands do not go out until you release it or have held it down for about three seconds
Intermatic appliance module HA02C
15A resistive but only at 42 watts for a Compact Fluorescent load
confirmed to handle a 40watt CF load with no problems
Intermatic HA07C portable remote
12 channels (addressable buttons)
allows a person to program timer events into the Z-Wave network
will store 28 timers
hard to see LCS in dim light (no backlight)
Intermatic HA06 dimmers
300W tungsten, 40W minimum
make "click" noise when you turn them on or off. Not loudly, but enough to let you know you actually pushed the button. It's a good effect.
soft green LED on the front that is off when the light is off
the switch is not really white in color. It is slightly off, so my white face plate does not match up with it completely.
do not require a neutral connection
'Intermatic' brandname impressed into the bottom paddle
also remembers the last on level
fixed ramp rate of about 1 - 1.5 second (not settable)
Noticable/movable airgap switch below paddle.
Intermatic HA03 plug in lamp modules
two pin without a pass through outlet
ACT-HomePro ZTH100 wireless controller
more complicated to operate than the Intermatic HA07
ZTH100 will allow you to read and set the ZTT100 thermostat
allow you to associate the ZIR000 PIR (passive IR) sensor to other devices
will store 8 timers
has 64 channels (addressable buttons)
hard to see LCS in dim light (no backlight)
ZIR000 PIR motion detector
no comments yet
And am I seeing things or does the Intermatic wall switch actually have it's brand name recessed into the switch? (please tell me that's a sticker) Also how obvious is the air gap switch at the bottom? I can just see my friends coming over and saying "hey whats this do" and moving it.
edit: just added some formatting so it was readable.
edit: added some new comments
KenM
Active Member
johnnynine,
Thanks.
I'm getting old, I missed that all together. My HA06 does have 'Intermatic' impressed into the bottom of the switch paddle. It is not real noticable unless the light hits it at a certain angle but it is there. I can live with that, but it is a hair on the 'tacky' side. The switch paddle looks somewhat like the Insteon ones in that four small screws hold the cover on it. I'm guessing replacement colors are available, and hopefully ones with no advertisement are also available.
The HA06 air gap switch is easily visible and accessible without any kind of tool (look out for the three year old child who is a switch flipper). The switch does take a little force to make it move so an accidental engagement is unlikely. Since this model switch claims no configurable parameters, all the air gap will do is prevent it from operating.
I forgot to mention, I am using three of the Intermatic HA03 plug in dimmer modules in my living room now. I have been for a few days and havn't been able to find anything I don't like about them. They are two pin without a pass through outlet. When you dim them they will stop at a low dim level that is good for use as a night light. The Insteon dimmer modules drove me nuts when I tried to get all three to the same low dim level manually, they would dim all the way to off. I finally had to use software to set them.
So far, I have set up a pretty decent Z-Wave network without any PC/software at all. I do have software on pre-order.
BTW, Thanks for organizing the Z-Wave parts of this thread. Most people are familar with Insteon, if not, they should read some of the 'AccessHA.com' forum postings and the 'Insteon.net' info. Z-Wave is relatively new in the US marketplace.
I like the idea that I can set up some really neat timers and scenes with just a battery operated controller and some plug in modules. That sort of moves it out of the 'computer geek' world. (Sorry about that, but I am a computer geek too).
I did set up a wall dimmer, lamp dimmer, and appliance switch for my wife on a simple 6 channel remote and she is happy. I have a 18 month old grand son who can already work that remote control.
Ken
(edit corrected spelling)
Thanks.
I'm getting old, I missed that all together. My HA06 does have 'Intermatic' impressed into the bottom of the switch paddle. It is not real noticable unless the light hits it at a certain angle but it is there. I can live with that, but it is a hair on the 'tacky' side. The switch paddle looks somewhat like the Insteon ones in that four small screws hold the cover on it. I'm guessing replacement colors are available, and hopefully ones with no advertisement are also available.
The HA06 air gap switch is easily visible and accessible without any kind of tool (look out for the three year old child who is a switch flipper). The switch does take a little force to make it move so an accidental engagement is unlikely. Since this model switch claims no configurable parameters, all the air gap will do is prevent it from operating.
I forgot to mention, I am using three of the Intermatic HA03 plug in dimmer modules in my living room now. I have been for a few days and havn't been able to find anything I don't like about them. They are two pin without a pass through outlet. When you dim them they will stop at a low dim level that is good for use as a night light. The Insteon dimmer modules drove me nuts when I tried to get all three to the same low dim level manually, they would dim all the way to off. I finally had to use software to set them.
So far, I have set up a pretty decent Z-Wave network without any PC/software at all. I do have software on pre-order.
BTW, Thanks for organizing the Z-Wave parts of this thread. Most people are familar with Insteon, if not, they should read some of the 'AccessHA.com' forum postings and the 'Insteon.net' info. Z-Wave is relatively new in the US marketplace.
I like the idea that I can set up some really neat timers and scenes with just a battery operated controller and some plug in modules. That sort of moves it out of the 'computer geek' world. (Sorry about that, but I am a computer geek too).
I did set up a wall dimmer, lamp dimmer, and appliance switch for my wife on a simple 6 channel remote and she is happy. I have a 18 month old grand son who can already work that remote control.
Ken
(edit corrected spelling)
Funny. My little toddler demands to use the HA07 remote to turn off the bedroom lights, and my 9 months old daughter insists that we pick her up to the wall dimmer so that she can press the paddle and watch the little green LED.KenM said:I have a 18 month old grand son who can already work that remote control.
I am working on a more detail review of ZWave, with pictures etc. It is still very much a work in progress since I only gotten a few of the devices so far. Will post the link once it's done.
To add to the comments so far --
1) I hate the "ramp to previous level" feature. It makes no sense, event for our bedroom light. Since last thing one do is to dim the lights before turning it off. Next evening I would want the light to come on full since it is just evening time. So I have two scenes right now, one that is "full on", and one that is "ready to sleep" set to dim level(s).
2) I did not realized that the ControlThink software does ZWave programming already. I'll have to look into that on top of playing with the SDK.
Hi Chris,ChrisWalker said:
Is this the "ThnkEssentials" that is in "pre-order" state on tech-home? Or this is a different product. I looked on your http://www.controlthink.com/ site and did not find anything called "Installer".
P.K.
ChrisWalker
Active Member
P.K.pkshiu said:
Yessir. It's actually no longer on pre-order (since it came out in late March), but the USB sticks are still on backorder so they haven't changed the state
As I understand it, the USB sticks have been going to the SDK orders to date.Which is funny, since the first free upgrade (v1.1) is coming out in just a week or two, and only a few hundred copies of v1.0 are out there. We expect the USB stick backlog to clear up in the coming weeks, and will make sure that the ThinkEssentials CDs going out the door are v1.1 or newer as well.
The new ThinkEssentials Installer is currently in beta, and will be shipping in the third quarter (which means hopefully July). It's pretty cool; if you see us at a tradeshow, be sure to ask for a demo. There's a PC version and a Pocket PC version (complete with SDIO Z-Wave card). You can read more about them at: http://www.cepro.com/products/press/7686.html
Chris
markthomas
Active Member
Wouldn't it be great if you could not only configure a switch to be either last level or preset level, but also change the preset level remotely (and ramp rate too, while we're dreaming)? That way you could set it up so that if you turn on the bathroom light in the middle of the night, it goes to 40% but during the day it goes to 100%? With a manual override at the switch so you can double-tap for full on?
UPB switches can do all that.
UPB switches can do all that.
KenM
Active Member
Thanks for the info Chris.
I am slowly building up a Z-Wave network and will enjoy the added benifits of having some control software to help keep me organized.
I have the SDK and the ThinkEssentials basic software both on order. The only .net IDE I have is VB. I like(ed) the Borland C++ Builder IDE but Borland got way too expensive for a license to make redistributable software. I'm hoping Microsoft is still friendly to small developers in that respect.
Today I added two Intermatic HA06 in wall dimmers.
To date I have installed:
2 HomePro ZDW100 in wall dimmers.
2 Intermatic HA06 in wall dimmer.
4 Intermatic HA02 Appliance modules.
3 Intermatic HA03 Lamp/dimmer modules.
1 HomePro ZTH100 wireless controller.
1 Intermatic HA07 wireless controller.
2 Intermatic HA09 handy remote controllers.
The HA06 in wall dimmers act pretty much like the ZDW100s. They both remember the last on level and have a preprogrammed ramp rate of about 1.5 seconds. I guess the configuration Natzis decided on that. I expect that I will be able to learn to live with it OK.
The HA06s do not require a neutral wire. I set up one to control a light fixture that has two 75 Watt halagon lamps. I just had to know. It appears to be working OK in that it will respond to a signal from anywhere in my house. I am thinking of putting in two 100W or 150W halogens in that fixture, just to do a torture test. The other is controlling a 75 Watt lamp in a bathroom. Both respond well to commands from all of my battery remote/controllers.
Ken
I am slowly building up a Z-Wave network and will enjoy the added benifits of having some control software to help keep me organized.
I have the SDK and the ThinkEssentials basic software both on order. The only .net IDE I have is VB. I like(ed) the Borland C++ Builder IDE but Borland got way too expensive for a license to make redistributable software. I'm hoping Microsoft is still friendly to small developers in that respect.
Today I added two Intermatic HA06 in wall dimmers.
To date I have installed:
2 HomePro ZDW100 in wall dimmers.
2 Intermatic HA06 in wall dimmer.
4 Intermatic HA02 Appliance modules.
3 Intermatic HA03 Lamp/dimmer modules.
1 HomePro ZTH100 wireless controller.
1 Intermatic HA07 wireless controller.
2 Intermatic HA09 handy remote controllers.
The HA06 in wall dimmers act pretty much like the ZDW100s. They both remember the last on level and have a preprogrammed ramp rate of about 1.5 seconds. I guess the configuration Natzis decided on that. I expect that I will be able to learn to live with it OK.
The HA06s do not require a neutral wire. I set up one to control a light fixture that has two 75 Watt halagon lamps. I just had to know. It appears to be working OK in that it will respond to a signal from anywhere in my house. I am thinking of putting in two 100W or 150W halogens in that fixture, just to do a torture test. The other is controlling a 75 Watt lamp in a bathroom. Both respond well to commands from all of my battery remote/controllers.
Ken
KenM
Active Member
Thanks Mark,
I don't doubt that UPB is an excellent protocol.
Being the cheap ******* that I am I went for Z-Wave, which seem to average about $20 less per device than UPB.
Z-Wave is still more expensive than Insteon. With all of the problems with the current Insteon hardware/firmware/software, I believe, when all is said and done, Z-Wave and Insteon will be about equal in price. UPB, still very reliable and configurable, will not be any less expensive than it is now.
If some property manager in Malibu asked me to install home automation devices it the house, believe me, UPB would be #1 on my evaluation list.
Just my opinon.
k
I don't doubt that UPB is an excellent protocol.
Being the cheap ******* that I am I went for Z-Wave, which seem to average about $20 less per device than UPB.
Z-Wave is still more expensive than Insteon. With all of the problems with the current Insteon hardware/firmware/software, I believe, when all is said and done, Z-Wave and Insteon will be about equal in price. UPB, still very reliable and configurable, will not be any less expensive than it is now.
If some property manager in Malibu asked me to install home automation devices it the house, believe me, UPB would be #1 on my evaluation list.
Just my opinon.
k
johnnynine
Active Member
So the Intermatic HA06 wall dimmers have:KenM said:
- a fixed ramp rate of about 1.5 seconds
- their brand name etched into them
- come 'on' at their last on level
- a noticable airgap switch below the paddle.
- a slightly off white in color
- a 300watt max
Sorry to be negative... so on a more up note, the HA06 does have the little green LED and there are a few more companies that 'may' be releasing switches in the next few months.
I really think the Insteon wall switches (with the exception of the keypad link) have better features and asthetics (personal opinion). So I wonder if a z-wave wall switch with the same features as an insteon switch would be at a higher price point. I guess what I am getting at is that the current z-wave wall switches seem to be falling short on features at a similar price as the Insteon switches. So if a more feature rich z-wave switch became available it may very well be more expensive and therefore make Insteon more attractive to me -- price/feature ratio.
The HA06 has a 300 watt max while the base insteon dimmer has a 600 watt max. Placing insteon dimmers next to each other reduces that max a good deal. How does placing zwave switches next to each other affect the max wattage? I have not found any documentation on this, and at a base max wattage of of 300, I'm a bit worried to place 2 next to each other.
I'm no z-wave expert so please correct any misinformation. Thanks.
Johnny
upstatemike
Senior Member
Maybe HAI will drop the price of their UPB switches to $25 and solve the Z-Wave/Insteon dilemma once and for all!
KenM
Active Member
Hi again,
To be honest, I am working from the point that Insteon is unusable at its present state of development, sorry, again, just my opion. It will not work for me.
Just to re-state my experience with Insteon;
I have killed about four ApplianceLincs (I ressurected one or two, with some success), I killed them with a 600W heater, a 50-100 W fan, and with various other loads mostly CFLs. I asked about three times to fix this problem... silence.
Lastly, I asked for support in the Insteon SDK and only got silence. I did ask for them to own up to some of the major defects, again silence.
We could carry on a good argument here but I am a bit crippled in that I cannot ....
(Insteon SDK agreement).
I have had two of the Insteon plug-in dimmer modules fail on me with (again) flashy lights.
I have had a KeyPadLinc in my bedroom, that was a major annoyance with the flashing buttons and too bright back light. The KPL likes to flash every time a message goes by, major bummer.
If you are happy with Insteon, I am happy for you. It's good. Live long and prosper.
I'm at the point now where a switch that works is good.
I am now enjoying Z-Wave
Ken
edit:
You have to wonder, was my experience an anomoly? Ask SH.
To be honest, I am working from the point that Insteon is unusable at its present state of development, sorry, again, just my opion. It will not work for me.
Just to re-state my experience with Insteon;
I have killed about four ApplianceLincs (I ressurected one or two, with some success), I killed them with a 600W heater, a 50-100 W fan, and with various other loads mostly CFLs. I asked about three times to fix this problem... silence.
Lastly, I asked for support in the Insteon SDK and only got silence. I did ask for them to own up to some of the major defects, again silence.
We could carry on a good argument here but I am a bit crippled in that I cannot ....
(Insteon SDK agreement).
I have had two of the Insteon plug-in dimmer modules fail on me with (again) flashy lights.
I have had a KeyPadLinc in my bedroom, that was a major annoyance with the flashing buttons and too bright back light. The KPL likes to flash every time a message goes by, major bummer.
If you are happy with Insteon, I am happy for you. It's good. Live long and prosper.
I'm at the point now where a switch that works is good.
I am now enjoying Z-Wave
Ken
edit:
You have to wonder, was my experience an anomoly? Ask SH.
KenM
Active Member
On the lighter side. I put up a ZIR000 PIR detector in my back yard and associated it with a flood light and a Robo-Dog thing. (I know, the electronic dog bark is sort of lame).
The bad point, no day/night sensor.
The ZIR100 is advertised as an indoor sensor. If the one I have in the back yard works out well, I will use some silicone RTV to make it weather proof.
So far, it works very well.
More to follow..
k
johnnynine
Active Member
Ken,
Your frustration and technology change is completely understandable. Smarthome does have several show stopper issues for some of us. I hope that by the time I am ready to make a mass purchase that Insteon will have fixed some of these issues and have some more devices like the wireless remotes that you seem to now be enjoying with z-wave. At the same time I also hope that there are more zwave switches to choose from.
In fairness my Keypadlinc never flashed when insteon traffic went by, but it sure is bright and well not the prettiest thing we've seen. (maybe the etched buttons help a little on that front).
One question in regards to the link table in the master and secondary z-wave controllers... What happens when you add a device to your home? Do you need to add the device to the master controller and then recopy the link table to the secondary controller?
edit: added phase coupler brightness comment
Your frustration and technology change is completely understandable. Smarthome does have several show stopper issues for some of us. I hope that by the time I am ready to make a mass purchase that Insteon will have fixed some of these issues and have some more devices like the wireless remotes that you seem to now be enjoying with z-wave. At the same time I also hope that there are more zwave switches to choose from.
KenM said:
In fairness my Keypadlinc never flashed when insteon traffic went by, but it sure is bright and well not the prettiest thing we've seen.
(maybe the etched buttons help a little on that front).Wow, have you got that right! I've got an insteon wireless phase coupler behind a couch in one room, that happens to be visible from where I sit in my home theater.. and it's just toooo bright.KenM said:
One question in regards to the link table in the master and secondary z-wave controllers... What happens when you add a device to your home? Do you need to add the device to the master controller and then recopy the link table to the secondary controller?
edit: added phase coupler brightness comment
I had some very bad experiences with Insteon as well in the begining. I only had one switch die (which has yet to be replaced and its coming on two months now) and they are horrible in a noisey enviroment. I dont see SH stating that they are immune to noise anymore (not saying that they dont state it I just dont see it anymore) so maybe they realized in real life applications they are not as good as in lab testing.
The lack of load capacity on the relay switches and dimmers is problem (max 400 watts or is it 300 or what is it really since it changes every place you read it).
I still have missed commands but very few compared to when I first started with them. My problem turned out to be some older CFL's were noisey as hell. When I repalced them it got better. I still have a few ICON's installed that dont link to anything. I cant figure out why and I would return them but I havent recevied the replacement for the one I sent months ago. I have 4 Switchlinc V2 relay switches new in the box that I am debating sending back since at 39.99 they are expensive on/off switches if they dont work either.
I really was hoping that this would be a line of reasonably priced automated switches and dimmers that would be a step up from X-10. The few X-10 items I have work better than the Insteon and I have heard similar claims from others on here.
I wonder why the latest catalog from SH only has 2 pages devoted to the Insteon (not even covering all of the products).
The lack of load capacity on the relay switches and dimmers is problem (max 400 watts or is it 300 or what is it really since it changes every place you read it).
I still have missed commands but very few compared to when I first started with them. My problem turned out to be some older CFL's were noisey as hell. When I repalced them it got better. I still have a few ICON's installed that dont link to anything. I cant figure out why and I would return them but I havent recevied the replacement for the one I sent months ago. I have 4 Switchlinc V2 relay switches new in the box that I am debating sending back since at 39.99 they are expensive on/off switches if they dont work either.
I really was hoping that this would be a line of reasonably priced automated switches and dimmers that would be a step up from X-10. The few X-10 items I have work better than the Insteon and I have heard similar claims from others on here.
I wonder why the latest catalog from SH only has 2 pages devoted to the Insteon (not even covering all of the products).
