Z-Wave vs Insteon - Opinions?

johnnynine said:
So if a more feature rich z-wave switch became available it may very well be more expensive and therefore make Insteon more attractive to me -- price/feature ratio.

The HA06 has a 300 watt max while the base insteon dimmer has a 600 watt max. Placing insteon dimmers next to each other reduces that max a good deal. How does placing zwave switches next to each other affect the max wattage? I have not found any documentation on this, and at a base max wattage of of 300, I'm a bit worried to place 2 next to each other.

I'm no z-wave expert so please correct any misinformation. Thanks.
Hi Johnny,

You are such a great enthusiast for this stuff. This is fun.

If this helps, here's a bit of clarification on a few topics:

UPB and Insteon switches are powerline carrier switches. Z-Wave is a wireless, routed mesh network protocol.

UPB and Insteon both have fairly slow data rates. Z-Wave runs at 9.6Kbps (2nd-generation) or 40Kbps (3rd-generation) -- and both interoperate.

Powerline protocols have limitations due to medium and transmission method. For instance, Insteon switches may suck up a lot of signal and do not repeat X10 signals.

The Intermatic HA06 dimmers are rated for 2-gang installations. I do not think they have to derate if you put two in a box. Additionally, they are built to really handle what they say they handle. One of the nice things about the well-established OEMs like Intermatic (and Leviton and Cooper) is that they make really high-quality products which should generally live up to their ratings. I imagine that the Intermatic HA02 Appliance modules, for instance, can really pull 1,000 watts Tungsten.

Chris
 
johnnynine said:
One question in regards to the link table in the master and secondary z-wave controllers... What happens when you add a device to your home? Do you need to add the device to the master controller and then recopy the link table to the secondary controller?
There are four ways to deal with this. It's actually a pretty ingenious system for portable remotes, and it works well with others as well.

Option 1: Simple setup
With portable remotes, you can generally only control devices if they're in a scene or assigned to a button, etc. If you have a remote in your bedroom, and you add a device in your living room with the master remote--but you don't need to control that device from your bedroom--you just keep on using the bedroom remote. You only have to update the controller if you need to control a device it doesn't know about. This is kind of a graceful fallback type scenario.

Option 2: Copying configuration
For those of us who would like to always have all routes available to our remotes, not waste time trying to route through old (removed/replaced) devices, or be able to control all devices from every remote, we can simply replicate (copy) from the primary to the slaves. For PC control, where it's not the master controller (and not running under option 3 or 4), you'll generally want to copy your master over to your PC whenever you make changes.

Option 3: Using stationary controller as synced network backup
With newer remotes, you can set up a stationary controller (like a USB stick plugged into your desktop, or some in-wall zone controllers) as a backup for network configuration and routing data. In Z-Wave parlance this is called SUC (or Static Update Controller). Your primary will automatically propogate changes to the network to the SUC in real-time (or later, if it's out of range), and your other controllers can automatically wake up from time to time to get network updates--or can do it on the fly when they need the data.

Option 4: Using stationary controller as central controller
With newer remotes, you can also set up a stationary controller (like a USB stick plugged into your desktop, or some in-wall zone controllers) as the Primary controller in your network. All other remotes become Inclusion controllers and can add/remove devices (except for older remotes, which can't add/remove devices)--and all remotes can still wake up from time to time and sync changes. Under this scenario, you do need to be within range of an existing Z-Wave device to add another one. In Z-Wave paralance, this option is called SIS (or SUC Identification Server)

Under both option 3 and 4, by the way, if you're using your PC as the SUC or SIS, you'll get real-time network updates in both the Z-Wave PC SDK and in ThinkEssentials. It's pretty cool--you can add devices with your remote and they'll show up automagically in the interface. Watch for this with some of the new remotes coming to market...

In the end, the flexibility of the system allows people to run a system with no central coordinator, or with a central coordinator. Like ad-hoc networking vs. using access points, this gives quite a bit of flexibility to market applications and usage scenarios.

Chris
 
Funny someone emailed me to advising me to refrain from negative posts and I didnt think I said anything inappropiate. I guess someone from SH got offended and complained? I dont think the person is an administrator since they really didnt identify themselves.

I just trashed it and chalked it up to mind my own business in the future.
 
I almost bought the sdk, but it wasn't real clear what I was going to get with it (sdm object and protocol documentatio, etc). At this point I guess I'm glad I didn't. I did start reverse engineering the usb communications and made some progress with a C# .NET library but called it quites when I found that the SDM could handle multiple simultaneous connects and was easy to interface with (but not easy to use at the time). Spying on usb communication is tedious work.

I do hope that Smarthome can in the end make everyone happy and I hope that ZWave can as well. Good competition weighs well for all of us.

I plan on posting some of my own pros and cons list of the 2 later on in this thread. Maybe some people can help me clean it up a bit.

Johnny

edit: Also, since you guys were contacted it's at least nice to know that they are listening. :D
 
Since the email to me was from a hotmail email address I am not holding it to credible. If someone who truly was from SH did email me (which I do not think is the case) I would rip it all out and sell it on eBay LOL.

To say it nicely I think that they are trying to move faster than they should but not fast enough for us.

They hyped up the products and now they are even raising prices and yet it still needs uhhhhh hmmmm shall we say "refinement"? It has potential but if I find that they change the firmware to fix problems I will be VERY upset since I dropped about $700 or more into this already. That is a lot of money for me.

My major complaint at the moment (ok here I go about to cause trouble again and get spanked by someone) is that I have 3 switches installed that will not link to anything. The other 4 or 5 are linked ok but they miss a "few" commands" I can see the LED's on the RF links blinking a lot so I assume that is all noise issues still which I "guess" may be part of the problem. The system is sooooo sensitive to noise it seems. My opinion that is.

Hopefully they will improve things. I think that more open communication from them would soothe people and give people that warm and fuzzy feeling that they need to continue to invest in the product line. Slow customer service response, slow corrections to problems, and slow product implementation (granted slow is better than letting something out the door that may not be ready) is hurting them (IMHO). Also where are all of the partners products they were referencing?

On a positive note the pricepoints are still lower than others out there and if they get the kinks out they will have something here.
 
KenM said:
Thanks Mark,

I don't doubt that UPB is an excellent protocol.

Being the cheap ******* that I am I went for Z-Wave, which seem to average about $20 less per device than UPB.

Z-Wave is still more expensive than Insteon. With all of the problems with the current Insteon hardware/firmware/software, I believe, when all is said and done, Z-Wave and Insteon will be about equal in price. UPB, still very reliable and configurable, will not be any less expensive than it is now.

If some property manager in Malibu asked me to install home automation devices it the house, believe me, UPB would be #1 on my evaluation list.

Just my opinon.

k
Just wait till you decide you want the new ZWave pro stuff and see that is costs more than UPB.
 
johnnynine said:
KenM said:
I have had a KeyPadLinc in my bedroom, that was a major annoyance with the flashing buttons and too bright back light. The KPL likes to flash every time a message goes by, major bummer.

In fairness my Keypadlinc never flashed when insteon traffic went by, but it sure is bright and well not the prettiest thing we've seen. :D (maybe the etched buttons help a little on that front).
I'm sorry I was wrong, it does flicker. And yes it is annoying.
 
That is true. I replaced my 2 keypadlincs with ones that do not flash with Insteon traffic.
One needed to be replaced for other reasons, but the other was replaced at my request to get rid of the flashing. New revision keypadlincs do not flash with Insteon traffic, and they did not give me a hard time at all about replacement.

Jim H.
 
Are they done with the firmware fixes? I have one KPL installed and another still sitting in the box. I really don't want to have to pull out switches and replace them. And leave bare wires hanging out? I have a whole bunch of ICONs and Insteon V2s waiting to be installed, but I'm gun shy because I don't want to have to install and then pull them out for replacement. <sigh> :D
 
They will never be done with firmware changes. Besides bug fixes there is also the possibility of new feature enhancements. These might (but probably won't) include:

The ability to set local ramp rates from software (currently you can only set ramp rates associated with links).

The abilility to program a top paddle press differently than a bottom paddle press. Example: have the top paddle press only turn on the local load but have the bottom turn off everything in the room.

The ability to set X-10 addresses from software.

The ability to monitor the actual current being drawn by a load and report it back to a controller for energy tracking and management.

And so on...
 
It is my understanding that they only made significant changes in the firmware for the KPL's. I am not buying any until things settle down a bit with them.

I just replaced a Switchlinc dimmer with a relay and put CFL's in my bathroom. the contractor put 4 highhats in for me when we remodeled 3 months ago and put 85 watt bulbs. I went with 15 watt CFL's (= to 65 watts) and they are actually brighter. This should save me a lot of money since the kids kept leaving the lights on.

Anyway it took me about 5 to 10 minutes to replace the device. I will hold onto the dimmer as a spare even though I only have 2 dimmers in the whole house. I use CFL's almost everywhere since my electric bill is over $300 a month as it is.

I will also be switching to laptops etc in the future since the desktops are just eating up the electric.
 
Like KenM, I am somewhat disillusioned by Smarthome's poor SDK support and spotty track record of fixing things. The big difference is that I essentially gave up on Smarthome several months before Ken did. Insteon might still succeed in spite of Smarthome though.

The main things that bug me about Insteon are:
* The *hideous* and glacially slow programming interface to the PowerlincV2. Smarthome seem to be trying to hide this behind the windows-only device manager (which is no help to me).
* Instability of the devices. They seem way too sensitive to power line disturbances. Crashing the microcontroller from electrical noise (eg: lightning and on appliancelincV2's with fluroescent lights) happens way too often.
* It seems to be built down to a price a little more than I'm comfortable with. (ie: a little too cheap which affects the quality)

I like:
* The PLC messaging is very fast and generally very reliable. Each device is a repeater.
* Protocols documented. Programming interface to PowerlincV2 documented, even if it is torturous to deal with.
* I like the switchlincV2's, so does my wife.


My main complaints with UPB are:
* Slow powerline messaging (240 baud)
* no 2-phase repeater (I noticed that there is a $380 3-phase repeater now, but so far I haven't discovered if it can be configured to work on a 2-phase system yet). A phase coupler doesn't cut it in my house.
* wretched 1/3 second latency on local light switch action. This is the showstopper for us. Unless they come out with rocker switches that instantly respond to the local rocker switch, they can keep them.
* buzzing noise when transmitting.

I like:
* Completely open protocol and programming documentation. Trivially easy to work with from a computer.
* Devices seem rock solid and don't crash or flake out. (Note: I've had HAI UPB devices die really easily, this plus might apply to the simply automated device only)
* the double and quad switch bodies.


Z-Wave is utterly out of the question for me because the programming interface is closed. Controlthink's wrapper doesn't help me because it is windows-only. (No, don't even bother mentioning Mono)


Coming back to Insteon's speed and the programming interface.. The powerline messaging system is really fast. Smarthome document that a complete round-trip acked command can be done within 5ms. I have no trouble believing this. What bugs me is that the programming interface to the powerlincV2 sucks so badly and is so painfully slow.

Consider this. 4800 baud = 480 bytes per second. At best, you can send one byte every 2.08ms. An insteon packet is 9 or 23 bytes. Even if there was a simple "send this enclosed packet" command (which there isn't), you are looking at way more than the 5ms advertised speed.

If you look at various source code around the place, you can see what steps are really required.. download, checksum and mask commands, then wait for events and the uploaded reply packet. 200-300ms is a far more realistic time to expect for an acknowledged command from a computer to a remote device. Then look at the protocol docs about the Peek and Poke commands. It becomes painfully obvious why it takes an eternity for things like powerhome to verify a link network or change links.

WIth Insteon, computer controllers are very definately second-class citizens. That's what bugs me the most. I'd pay quite a bit more for a fast PowerlincV2. I'd happily pay a couple of hundred dollars for a fast PowerlincV2-Pro that a computer could use to do acked commands within 10ms and with a programming interface that didn't suck. ie: I'd ditch SALad in a heartbeat in order to dedicate more rom space to a decent command set.

So, I'm stuck. Z-Wave would be perfect for my needs if only they'd open the programming interface. (Plus, there are 220/240V 50Hz versions). So Z-Wave is out. UPB isn't reliable here with a simple passive coupler so that's out. And Insteon's PowerlincV2 interface totally blows. It works but is painfully slow. X10's unreliability is right out too.

I've been real close to hauling a serial RS485 network around and telling all the others to go to hell. But the pain caused by Insteon's programming interface and unreliable devices (see the appliancelincV2 hell) is just slightly within my pain tolerance level so I haven't quite got around to it yet.

Our next house will be hardwired with serial everywhere. Bah!
 
I really don't want to have to pull out switches and replace them. And leave bare wires hanging out?

If you give a credit card number, they will cross-ship. They basically charge the new switches, and send them along with a return shipping label in the box. You change your switches, package up the old ones, slap on the included shipping label, and send them back for credit. No reason to leave wires hanging out.

Jim H.
 
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