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Alarm system for new Loxone setup
- Thread starter jeditekunum
- Start date
Some vendors of DSC offer the programming software for download as well.Sparkman1 said:I'm not sure about access control integration as I don't use it. DLS is in theory available only to dealers, but there are versions floating around on the internet. If you do go this route and you have trouble finding it, PM me and I can hook you up. EnvisaLink connects to the same bus as the IT100 and outputs as ethernet. There are drivers/plugins for the Envisalink interface for some HA products. Not sure if the protocols are published or if it was reverse engineered.
The EnvisaLink protocol document is available on the forum supported by eyez-on.com (the Envisalink manufacturer.)
jeditekunum
Active Member
I'm still researching this topic. Build is starting this summer.
Is there a reason why none of the experts here have mentioned the Honeywell Vista "Turbo" systems? Like VISTA-32FBPT or VISTA-128(F)BPT.
I'm seeing lots of the features I was interested in. Has V-Plex which is their addressable device branding. Has traditional wired. And wireless. And traditional 2 & 4 wire smokes (they have V-Plex smokes). Plus they have access control. Look like there is a RS232 interface.
Obviously it is going to cost more. Clearly products aimed at commercial use - but surely workable for residential. So what is the down-side besides cost. Availability?
This is the kind of technology a geek like me expects in the 21st century. Given the cost of labor these days, why would anyone want to do new construction with every zone home-run? The extra cost for devices is probably offset by that cost alone.
Is there a reason why none of the experts here have mentioned the Honeywell Vista "Turbo" systems? Like VISTA-32FBPT or VISTA-128(F)BPT.
I'm seeing lots of the features I was interested in. Has V-Plex which is their addressable device branding. Has traditional wired. And wireless. And traditional 2 & 4 wire smokes (they have V-Plex smokes). Plus they have access control. Look like there is a RS232 interface.
Obviously it is going to cost more. Clearly products aimed at commercial use - but surely workable for residential. So what is the down-side besides cost. Availability?
This is the kind of technology a geek like me expects in the 21st century. Given the cost of labor these days, why would anyone want to do new construction with every zone home-run? The extra cost for devices is probably offset by that cost alone.
There are many great systems out there but people on this board would prefer one that is easy to integrate with home automation. Because of the security requirements of the alarm systems it's not trivial to open them up for integration, and even if RS232 interface is available, you'll need a driver to integrate it with your HA. If you can write it yourself, then you have more options than usually discussed here. However, looking at the Vista data-sheet: "On-board serial port for communication with WIN-PAK, Pro-Watch and approved third-party applications", all proprietary protocols, so you'll have even harder time trying to integrate it.
Vplex smokes on the Vista aren't going to allow the tandem ring that code's going to require and honestly....I wouldn't go proprietary data bus smokes in a house. There's also a bunch to consider when wiring a multiplex data bus in general, and in a house, definitely not recommended (horrors of the old Vector panel installs I've experienced).
Personally, while I've installed hundreds of Vista panels over the years, I'd still recommend Elk over them for a mid level or high level install. Price difference between the two becomes trivial at the point when comparing features. The on-board serial isn't the real selling point, as most panels have some variation of the theme once you get to the mid level products.
Personally, while I've installed hundreds of Vista panels over the years, I'd still recommend Elk over them for a mid level or high level install. Price difference between the two becomes trivial at the point when comparing features. The on-board serial isn't the real selling point, as most panels have some variation of the theme once you get to the mid level products.
jeditekunum
Active Member
DELInstallations said:Vplex smokes on the Vista aren't going to allow the tandem ring that code's going to require and honestly....I wouldn't go proprietary data bus smokes in a house. There's also a bunch to consider when wiring a multiplex data bus in general, and in a house, definitely not recommended (horrors of the old Vector panel installs I've experienced).
Personally, while I've installed hundreds of Vista panels over the years, I'd still recommend Elk over them for a mid level or high level install. Price difference between the two becomes trivial at the point when comparing features. The on-board serial isn't the real selling point, as most panels have some variation of the theme once you get to the mid level products.
As I've said before, this stuff is archaic and cryptic. Without having researched it I assume tandem ring is a residential-only requirement. The panels mentioned are certified for residential because of the 2/4 wire smoke interface and not Vplex.? Wonderful. (Why doesn't Honeywell have a Vplex smoke with sounder?!)
I'm puzzled about why an addressable bus is substantially worse than a chain of 2-wire. If you can point me towards a document discussing this I would be interested. I'm very familiar with the general issue of a data bus over long distances so I understand that requires a bit more care.
I've seen your post about your own use of 2WMOD/RRS/2WTAB. I've seen comments discouraging multiple smoke zones. But I really need at least indication of which floor triggered an alarm (I'm disabled and getting around to check where the alarm is from would be too time consuming across floors). Am I going to have trouble with using 2/multiple sets of 2WMOD/RSS/2WTABs? The panel would know which floor the alarm is from but all would sound.
I can't use 2 separate chains of 2WTAB only because Elk only supports 1 2-wire zone.
So now we're talking a commercial building?
You're confusing two separate and independent items....what a panel/device CAN do vs. what is permissible within residential building code.
Code is tandem ring and at least 75 dB at pillow level. Whether or not the inspector allows separate sounders instead of integral to the device is generally up to creative interpretation of the building codes.
Tandem ring with any addressable device, even the big commercial FACP's is going to require a separate pair of wires OR appliance. The SLC doesn't have enough power to drive the sound appliance. It's not supposed to.
Vplex requires consideration to noise, type of cable (capacitance), distance and topology. It's true no matter what method the system is wired in (T-taps are allowable, but not on conventional fire wiring).
http://www.security.honeywell.com/star/hsce_Files/Files/C-VPlexRouting.htm
Also, IMHO from 20+ years in the field and having to address the old Ademco Vector installs and other multiplex alarms, there's ALWAYS some sort of bus issue that arises, and especially in complete finished spaces and inaccessible, it's not fun to troubleshoot or fix.
If you're really looking for knowing what device and specific location, honestly, I'd suggest a small addressable FACP connected to serial on the host panel (assuming that panel can take serial into it) and slave the common alarm/trouble/supervisory alarms to the host panel and then outputs to drive the reset.....
It's not really archaic. There really isn't the need to be so granular on a small installation (less than 16 smokes cover 99% of residential installs out there). When people will replace a panel that costs less than $200 at trade when dumping companies (yet spend more on their cell phone!) there's a reason why proprietary or addressable fire alarm isn't high on the priority for a manufacturer to drive into their panel vs. the cost of the panel itself. We're not talking high end devices or high technology panels in the overall scope of things.
You're confusing two separate and independent items....what a panel/device CAN do vs. what is permissible within residential building code.
Code is tandem ring and at least 75 dB at pillow level. Whether or not the inspector allows separate sounders instead of integral to the device is generally up to creative interpretation of the building codes.
Tandem ring with any addressable device, even the big commercial FACP's is going to require a separate pair of wires OR appliance. The SLC doesn't have enough power to drive the sound appliance. It's not supposed to.
Vplex requires consideration to noise, type of cable (capacitance), distance and topology. It's true no matter what method the system is wired in (T-taps are allowable, but not on conventional fire wiring).
http://www.security.honeywell.com/star/hsce_Files/Files/C-VPlexRouting.htm
Also, IMHO from 20+ years in the field and having to address the old Ademco Vector installs and other multiplex alarms, there's ALWAYS some sort of bus issue that arises, and especially in complete finished spaces and inaccessible, it's not fun to troubleshoot or fix.
If you're really looking for knowing what device and specific location, honestly, I'd suggest a small addressable FACP connected to serial on the host panel (assuming that panel can take serial into it) and slave the common alarm/trouble/supervisory alarms to the host panel and then outputs to drive the reset.....
It's not really archaic. There really isn't the need to be so granular on a small installation (less than 16 smokes cover 99% of residential installs out there). When people will replace a panel that costs less than $200 at trade when dumping companies (yet spend more on their cell phone!) there's a reason why proprietary or addressable fire alarm isn't high on the priority for a manufacturer to drive into their panel vs. the cost of the panel itself. We're not talking high end devices or high technology panels in the overall scope of things.
jeditekunum
Active Member
Thanks for the info. A small addressable FACP doesn't seem small to me - at least price-wise. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place but fire panel prices seem high.
I'm still not seeing a clear solution. I'm disabled. When an alarm goes off I cannot reasonably cover 2 floors looking for a glowing LED. I just want to know which floor triggered it.
This isn't rocket science. It maybe is a bit more than a "typical" home. It shouldn't add thousand+ $. I may represent a tiny market but my needs are real - yet not the same as a nursing home!
Again I'll ask: 2 sets of 2WMOD/RSS/2WTABs, one set per floor, connected to a panel (Elk for example) with both RSS being driven by the same alarm output to sound on both floors.
I'm still not seeing a clear solution. I'm disabled. When an alarm goes off I cannot reasonably cover 2 floors looking for a glowing LED. I just want to know which floor triggered it.
This isn't rocket science. It maybe is a bit more than a "typical" home. It shouldn't add thousand+ $. I may represent a tiny market but my needs are real - yet not the same as a nursing home!
Again I'll ask: 2 sets of 2WMOD/RSS/2WTABs, one set per floor, connected to a panel (Elk for example) with both RSS being driven by the same alarm output to sound on both floors.
And the answer is already out there. The tandem ring/reversed voltage is going to cause the second fire zone to go into trouble upon alarm activation. How the host panel responds to that depends on the host panel, but if you drive the module with a +12V trip, the trouble will be held constant. If you use a temp 3 pulse, you're going to have the trouble follow the pulse. Generally the trouble will latch on the panel, but that's dependent on the host panel.
jeditekunum
Active Member
Ok, I think I get it. Zone(s) that weren't triggered originally will think they have trouble.
Bad technology. Bad design. The 2WMOD should have been designed to include the RSS functionality. Then non-alarming zones would have had the smarts to not trigger their own alarm/trouble.
I'm sure I can fix any bad behavior somehow although will likely have to be post-inspection. Sigh.
Bad technology. Bad design. The 2WMOD should have been designed to include the RSS functionality. Then non-alarming zones would have had the smarts to not trigger their own alarm/trouble.
I'm sure I can fix any bad behavior somehow although will likely have to be post-inspection. Sigh.
It's not a technology or design issue. What you're asking the panel to do via a reversing relay is disconnect the zone from the panel and receive reversed power from an auxiliary source. If the panel didn't recognize a zone that was NOT in alarm with the polarity reversed/circuit disconnected (after all, we're talking diodes here to cause the tandem ring on reversed system voltage) then that would be a design flaw.
Any reversing relay module or adapter will function the same way (I think GE/Interlogix dropped theirs years back). The 2WMOD takes the signal off the circuit for the maintenance indication and facilitates a single walk test (glamorous LED flash) and even the higher tech Cosmo units perform the same (actually the trouble shows up on fire reset for the CO detection circuit).
If you really want granular functionality and tandem ring, more cable needs to be pulled and you're looking at addressable with sounder bases. You're already talking about money for the HA server and other functionality. Firelite MS 9050 and detectors are cheap compared to what you're looking at putting in as a HA toy. $100 a detector/sounder base, which is trivial compared to the $40-50 for a similar analog detector, followed by about $50 for a monitor module. Basically you're looking at the cost for adding a panel, which would be offset by the multiple reversing relays ($35 ea) and maintenance module ($60 ea). So in actuality, its a simple integration and the performance is going to be greater than trying to cobble together a mismash of equipment to create the analog zones to know a general vicinity of alarm vs. actual addressable points. Also simplifies the wiring....pull a sounder trigger per floor and then run a loop per floor for SLC.
Any reversing relay module or adapter will function the same way (I think GE/Interlogix dropped theirs years back). The 2WMOD takes the signal off the circuit for the maintenance indication and facilitates a single walk test (glamorous LED flash) and even the higher tech Cosmo units perform the same (actually the trouble shows up on fire reset for the CO detection circuit).
If you really want granular functionality and tandem ring, more cable needs to be pulled and you're looking at addressable with sounder bases. You're already talking about money for the HA server and other functionality. Firelite MS 9050 and detectors are cheap compared to what you're looking at putting in as a HA toy. $100 a detector/sounder base, which is trivial compared to the $40-50 for a similar analog detector, followed by about $50 for a monitor module. Basically you're looking at the cost for adding a panel, which would be offset by the multiple reversing relays ($35 ea) and maintenance module ($60 ea). So in actuality, its a simple integration and the performance is going to be greater than trying to cobble together a mismash of equipment to create the analog zones to know a general vicinity of alarm vs. actual addressable points. Also simplifies the wiring....pull a sounder trigger per floor and then run a loop per floor for SLC.
jeditekunum
Active Member
I'm looking at ~12 detectors so my rough calculation is that the addressable route will cost ~2X as much. On the order of $1000 difference.
Just to clarify - the Loxone will not be a part of this except for communicating with the security panel. The Loxone can't do fire and the rest won't do automation to my satisfaction. (I've already purchased the Loxone.) The Firelite approach would mean a fire panel communicating to a security panel (TBD) communicating to Loxone. (Or I have to change my mind and have Loxone do security.) Talk about cobbled mismash. (OmniPro or Elk doesn't help.) A Vista with Vplex seems slightly better.
As for the kludge approach, from an amateurs perspective, I don't see a problem. Once a zone goes into alarm why do I care if other zones go into trouble? I will reset everything via my automation system.
My design comment is simply this. If the RSS was part of the 2WMOD then when the magical new part gets the signal that the panel has gone into alarm it reverses the polarity and DOES NOT trigger a trouble since IT reversed the polarity.
Just to clarify - the Loxone will not be a part of this except for communicating with the security panel. The Loxone can't do fire and the rest won't do automation to my satisfaction. (I've already purchased the Loxone.) The Firelite approach would mean a fire panel communicating to a security panel (TBD) communicating to Loxone. (Or I have to change my mind and have Loxone do security.) Talk about cobbled mismash. (OmniPro or Elk doesn't help.) A Vista with Vplex seems slightly better.
As for the kludge approach, from an amateurs perspective, I don't see a problem. Once a zone goes into alarm why do I care if other zones go into trouble? I will reset everything via my automation system.
My design comment is simply this. If the RSS was part of the 2WMOD then when the magical new part gets the signal that the panel has gone into alarm it reverses the polarity and DOES NOT trigger a trouble since IT reversed the polarity.
I'm not going to argue cost vs. functionality. It's a fast, good, or cheap analogy.
Without getting into the explanation of how and why, the magical widget isn't going to function how you want it to due to the nature of the 2WMOD which just changes the connection to the IDC from the panel. The RRS is installed on the back side of the IDC, so the 2WMOD has zero to do with functionality and the granular item of the detectors, you're not going to change how they must function and respond, you're down to the diode level on the circuit board.
The FACP can put out serial and provide all the fire alarm functionality, so honestly, at that point, there's no need for a security panel....hell, you can even put the annunciator in instead and know without any other interface what is generating the alarm. The only thing an interface to a host alarm panel would be is for the purpose of end user annunciation as the FACP would supercede the overall operation of the integration. The only purpose of connection to a host security panel would be convenience and to facilitate annunciation and remote reset instead of installing the native FACP annunciator.
As far as generating the additional troubles, I don't know of any AHJ that would allow a fire alarm to be in trouble for any reason and sign off on the CO. I put together a whole sequence of operation of what would occur and be transmitted in the case of a monitored system
Without getting into the explanation of how and why, the magical widget isn't going to function how you want it to due to the nature of the 2WMOD which just changes the connection to the IDC from the panel. The RRS is installed on the back side of the IDC, so the 2WMOD has zero to do with functionality and the granular item of the detectors, you're not going to change how they must function and respond, you're down to the diode level on the circuit board.
The FACP can put out serial and provide all the fire alarm functionality, so honestly, at that point, there's no need for a security panel....hell, you can even put the annunciator in instead and know without any other interface what is generating the alarm. The only thing an interface to a host alarm panel would be is for the purpose of end user annunciation as the FACP would supercede the overall operation of the integration. The only purpose of connection to a host security panel would be convenience and to facilitate annunciation and remote reset instead of installing the native FACP annunciator.
As far as generating the additional troubles, I don't know of any AHJ that would allow a fire alarm to be in trouble for any reason and sign off on the CO. I put together a whole sequence of operation of what would occur and be transmitted in the case of a monitored system
jeditekunum
Active Member
Ok, fine. The regulations care even if I don't. If a fire alarm goes off in my house the last thing I'm going to worry about is other zones indicating trouble.
Yes, I wouldn't need a security panel if I had the Loxone do security.
Upon further research I see that the COSMOD2W may do exactly what I suggested. It interfaces i3 & i4 detectors to standard zones. And it takes the alarm triggered signal eliminating the need for a separate RSS. I haven't found exact wording of this but that strongly suggests that once an alarm goes off that it will NOT indicate trouble. Just what I need.
Yes, I wouldn't need a security panel if I had the Loxone do security.
Upon further research I see that the COSMOD2W may do exactly what I suggested. It interfaces i3 & i4 detectors to standard zones. And it takes the alarm triggered signal eliminating the need for a separate RSS. I haven't found exact wording of this but that strongly suggests that once an alarm goes off that it will NOT indicate trouble. Just what I need.
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