Another help-a-newbie post :)

[electron]

Hey Green,
What is the PreWire 103 list? I'm going to be dealing with a contractor for our build soon and I want to make sure he and I are on the same page with regards to wiring standards for home automation/security. Thanks!

You can find all the wiring guides/documents here.

 

[greenhighlighter]

HomeTech solutions in San Jose is the only "brick" HA store I know in Bay Area. But you'll be better getting your gear from the on-line stores like AutomatedOutlet.com and ASIhome.com and even amazon.
 
There is no such thing as a generic "automated outlet", there are many brands and technologies that offer a controllable outlet and they all differ in features, reliability, design and price. First you need to decide what you want from your automated switches.
 
The very basic ones will allow you to turn them on/off with some kind of proprietary remote; the more fancy version of those can be controlled from a smart phone with some proprietary app and require you to have a wifi in your house (example: belkin wemo).
 
The next level of devices is when you can also integrate them with a home automation system. This requires you to figure out which system will you have, because not all HA controllers support all brands, at least not natively. Integration itself can be done on different levels. First level allows your HA controller to turn devices on/off, some devices will respond to a status request from the controller, so they will need to be polled by the controller to synchronize their state. Other devices will report the status instantly as it changes, this allows a lot higher level of integration as you can use your switches as mini-controllers. For example, double tap on a switch can be programmed to initiate a scene, while single tap will control the local load. Some brands offer keypads with extra buttons that can also be programmed to perform scenes that may include other types of devices, like operating shades and arming security system.
 
On top of that there may be design concerns in terms of "looks", some people don't like decora type switches, and that will immediately restrict your choices down to a very few. Another frequent limitation is the fan speed controller, as only very few exist, but that could be solved by combining different technologies with the help of a central controller.
 
So, when you have made your decision on what features are important for you to have in your automated house, it would be easier to recommend the specific brand. And most brands offer plug-in modules, so that you don't have to decide up-front where to install the automated outlets.

 
Ahhhh!  OK.  I became overwhelmed and stopped thinking about this while I worked on other house stuff (cabinets and shower stuff are now ordered!).
 
But I'm back to this. 
 
I'd like to avoid proprietary systems as much as possible, given I don't really know where I'm going to end up. 
 
To start off, I think I'd like to buy some light switches, a home audio system, a door lock, and a thermostat...  and whatever I'd need to control a ceiling fan. 
 
But it sounds like I should figure out what controller I want to go with first?    But then I read to do the software trials first, but how do I do a software trial if I don't have a HA system at all yet? 
 
Is it awful, but I would love if someone could just tell me to buy x, y, and z and then link me to those products?  My brain is on strike...  But I'm thinking that once I have a start, it will all begin making sense and I can start tweaking from there.  My attempt at doing the "right" thing is leading me to do nothing, and I'm not sure I have the guts to just jump in without someone holding my hand...
 
And I read the threads about Almond+ and it sounds great, but I missed the kickstarter window by 1 day (darn!), but am on their email list so will hopefully be able to pre-order one.  Is that worth waiting for?
 
***sigh**  overwhelmed... 

 

[picta]

Do you want to be able to control the fan's speed or just turn it on and off? If you want speed, you are pretty much limited to 2 technologies: z-wave by Leviton and insteon by smarthome. Both have pros and cons. You can check them out and read reviews to decide which pros or cons will matter to you. Insteon contoller is wired in-line under the fan canopy, so it will be harder to install, and reportedly its low speed is too low, so people complain that they only get 2 speeds. The leviton switch only controls the fan, you'll need a separate switch if you have fan light, but it is actually an advantage, since insteon module can only control incandescent lights.
 
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=VRF01-1LX&section=44142&minisite=10251
http://www.smarthome.com/2475F/FanLinc-INSTEON-Ceiling-Fan-and-Light-Controller-Fixture-Module-Dual-Band/p.aspx
 
 

A
 
To start off, I think I'd like to buy some light switches, a home audio system, a door lock, and a thermostat...  and whatever I'd need to control a ceiling fan. 

 

[dgage]

Lutron RadioRa2 now has a 4 speed fan control.

 

[greenhighlighter]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  I'm going with the z-wave product.  Now, is there a best (or worst) place to buy these things?  Or do you just search online for the best price?
 

Do you want to be able to control the fan's speed or just turn it on and off? If you want speed, you are pretty much limited to 2 technologies: z-wave by Leviton and insteon by smarthome. Both have pros and cons. You can check them out and read reviews to decide which pros or cons will matter to you. Insteon contoller is wired in-line under the fan canopy, so it will be harder to install, and reportedly its low speed is too low, so people complain that they only get 2 speeds. The leviton switch only controls the fan, you'll need a separate switch if you have fan light, but it is actually an advantage, since insteon module can only control incandescent lights.
 
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=VRF01-1LX&section=44142&minisite=10251
http://www.smarthome.com/2475F/FanLinc-INSTEON-Ceiling-Fan-and-Light-Controller-Fixture-Module-Dual-Band/p.aspx

 

[greenhighlighter]

How do you buy it?  A quick search doesn't seem to pull up any online outlets (or ones that tell me to call)?  How does it compare to the Levitron Z-wave one?
 

Lutron RadioRa2 now has a 4 speed fan control.

 

[picta]

RadioRa is not a DIY product, in order to buy it you have to take a course from the vendor. Comparing it to Leviton ViziaRF is somewhat like comparing Lexus with a Camry. If you can stretch your HA budget by 40%, then you can get a more reliable and easier to configure lighting system, but at an extra cost.

 

[dgage]

It is pseudo DIY...you can get it but you have to do some work and it is more expensive. I was primarily posting for accuracy as there are others that do use RadioRa 2 on the forum and the fan control was just released a few months ago. And to be fair to cost, elegance, and reliability, I would compare Lutron RadoRa 2 to a nice Lexus LS 460 (near top of the line). And I'm not sure I would compare Zwave reliability to that of a Camry, epecially for larger implementations. Note that this is based on research done on this forum as I have not used Zwave. Based on my reading, UPB is much more reliable for those that don't have weird installation issues such as noisy pumps, etc. Insteon reliability over the years has been suspect as well.

Here is my initial post on my RadioRa 2 system after I had my kitchen switches installed. There is some back and forth in the post about what is needed to get access to the software.
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/22984-radiora-2-first-day-impressions/?hl=%20radiora%20%20impressions

Here is a post before I selected RadioRa 2 where I summarize the different lighting technologies in a very short synopsis.
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/22455-suggested-ha-lighting-friend-building-a-home/page-3#entry183928

And I am a consumer happy with his RadioRa 2 implementation. It is expensive and I will be slowly adding switches. So far, almost 4 months in I haven't seen a single failure to operate and that includes status, which many DIY systems don't do well. I find the switches to be very elegant and high quality, which in my opinion is not the case for most of the DIY lighting offerings.

David

 

[dgage]

I don't want to seem like some jerk that pops in and recommends a Lexus or Mercedes (I drive neither).

If a friend asked me for a recommendation, first I'd say save your money and only automate what you plan to use. I would not put an automated switch everywhere in the house but in strategic locations to improve the life of the occupants as well as strategically placed in the front of the house for security purposes. And related to a specific lighting technology, UPB would be it based on MY READING ON THIS SITE. As someone mentioned, lighting is not an area you want to have reliability issues. I would likely use Zwave or Zigbee for locks or thermostats and so I would strategically locate some Zwve or Zigbee wall outlets to ensure a solid mesh of the network.

To determine how you might use lighting here are some use cases that I have so far with switches only in my kitchen, garage, master bedroom, and master bath and a motion sensor in the garage I have a few more switches to install but I haven't had the time. These use cases use the Lutron RadioRa 2 system and I have the CQC home automation software added in.

* Enter the garage from the back door and the garage light turns on via motion sensor. Also turns off the lights after a set amount of time without motion (used to annoy me to come home after many hours away to see garage light left on for no good reason)
* Turn on the back door light at sunset and off at sunrise
* If night, turn on kitchen pendants when entering the garage (setup w CQC)
* If the kitchen main light is turned on, check to see if other kitchen lights are on and turn them off (CQC)
* If the kitchen pendants are turned on, turn off the main kitchen light if on (CQC)
* Pico remote next to bed to turn off master bedroom light (CQC to use middle button to turn on/off master bath night light)

Just this handful of light switches and settings has made a difference in our lives and my wife still comments on how she likes this or that. I will soon add more but haven't felt a need yet. Also, some of these things I come up with after living with it and realizing I have an option. Like the other day I was in the kitchen and noticed the main kitchen light was on with the kitchen pendants, which is a redundant waste of energy. I logged into CQC and setup a trigger so that only one or the other would be on but not both. That wasn't a scenario I thought of just a few weeks ago.

Hope this helps.

David

 

[greenhighlighter]

OK.  All this information is great and very clear.  Dgage - how you use your lighting is particularly useful.
 
I'm torn.  I want reliable, but I'm not sure that I should be spending more (aka, a camry is fine with me!).  If the z-wave is less reliable, what does that mean?  That I might have to walk over and flip a light switch? 
 
And the whole training aspect of the RadioRa is a bit of a barrier, but maybe a training would be good for me!
 
But then easier to configure is great and maybe worth the extra cost.
 
Ahhh!  How did you guys ultimately make up your mind?

 

[dgage]

You asked and shall receive my thought process (careful what you wish for). You might want to read the whole thread as it is similar to your post and provides discussion on the main lighting choices.

http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/23985-pre-wire-for-home-automation/page-2#entry190640

The Lutron RadioRa training is very good and gives some good foundation for the RadioRa 2 solution as well as some of their ancillary products so there is a bit of sales going on (remember this is focused on integrators/dealers) but for the most part it is focused on the RadioRa 2 gear and which switches or dimmers you should select for a given situation. It also goes over their HVAC controls, motion, and other sensors. The final online presentation is focused on their software and how to implement it. Having taken the training I felt more informed about the strengths and weaknesses of the system before I purchased the system.

Now regarding where to purchase, I'll have to see what I can find as I was able to procure dealer pricing. I know some on another Lutron board recommended calling a place out in California so I'll see if I can track that info down.

To answer some of your questions, Zwave is supposedly less reliable primarily when you get upwards of 60 switches or more based on my reading. Zwave and Zigbee are mesh network systems so you need to have coverage and the way you get coverage is to make sure you have overlap between devices so one can relay a command to and from others. Well, that can become chatty when you have all these switches spouting off commands. At a certain point, Zwave likely becomes too chatty and like a loud restaurant, it gets hard to hear and you lose commands. So lets say you have a scene to turn off certain lights or set them lower to watch a movie, it is possible that one of the switches misses a command so you'll need to hit the button again. Obviously this could get annoying if it happened a lot. Also, many of the switches don't update their status so if you are using software, the software will often have to query each switch to determine whether it is on/off or light level. Again, more chattiness.

Lutron RadioRa 2 works on a wireless central repeater (main + aux) and so each device communicates with the repeater so there is less chatter. As a matter of fact, I can telnet into the main repeater and see the commands and it is usually quiet until you hit a switch and it will send out a few commands and get status. Very efficient and I've never read anyone say the RadioRa 2 system is not reliable. Now one thing I will say is that the RadioRa system is like Apple. The main software is definitely easy to configure and it works well and is elegant but don't expect anything outside of what they offer. So certain items like double-taps are not supported on the RadioRa 2 system and I know some use double taps with Zwave and UPB. Also, if you want to do some of the more esoteric things like if this light is on turn it off, you will need to get some home automations software or hardware. The only HA software that supports RadioRa 2 at this point is CQC and then the HAI OmniPro and Elk panels will integrate with RadioRa 2. Also remember that the online training will only get you the Lutron Essentials software, which will only support 100 devices.

David

 

[dgage]

Oh and UPB seems more reliable than Zwave based on my reading and they are both on par in terms of cost, which is to say some of the cheapest HA switches available. I know some recommend the Simply Automated UPB switches and others like the slightly newer HAI UPB switches. There are other UPB companies out there but these seem the most popular. You will also need a bridge or repeater (depends on switch manufacturer) so the UPB signals can be propagated to both sides of your electrical wiring (two wiring legs in your panel and the UPB communications need to pass on both legs).

And I should say I have nothing against Zwave, I am just passing along what I have read from other users on this forum.

 

[oberkc]

If the z-wave is less reliable, what does that mean?

I believe "reliable" in this context is referring to communication.  If one switch is programmed to cause another device (other switch, module) to respond, and that other device regularly fails to respond, that would be considered less reliable.
 

Ahhh!  How did you guys ultimately make up your mind?

My choice of protocol was arguably based upon an impulse purchase.  Many years back, I saw some X-10 devices at a local store.  Curious and excited about the prospect of home automation, I purchased a few and began my addiction.  After having a few devices installed, I became aware of other options, such as insteon, z-wave and (later UPB, control4, etc...)  Given that I had existing x-10 devices and did not want to rip it all out, I chose insteon for any future automation because I percieved it to be most compatible with my existing x-10 system.  While I have experienced some "reliability" issues, I have them solved and have not looked back. At this point, I am quite happy with my insteon system.
 
My suspicion is that any of the mainstream DIY systems (z-wave, insteon, UPB) will be fine for you.  Sometimes, the hardest decisions are the ones where each option is equally viable and there is no obvious choice.  If your initial instinct said to go with Z-wave, then stand by your decision and move forward.  Z-wave appears to meet your stated desires...it is not proprietary.  It has thermostats and fan controls.  There are robust controllers, both hardware and software based.  There are android and IOS apps for those controllers. 
 
Everything I have seen here makes me believe it is as good a choice as any. It may have specific strengths and weaknesses, but you will be able to make it work. 
 
While I have no personal experience with this, were I to ever remove insteon and migrate to z-wave, I would definitely investigate further the controller from micase verde vera III.  But, then, I tend to prefer hardware-based systems so that I don't have to leave my computer running 24/7.
 
 
 

 

[oberkc]

Ahhh!  How did you guys ultimately make up your mind?

Another thought on this question....I don't believe there is a law that requires us to maintain a single protocol.  Many of us have more than one coexisting within our house.  The example I mentioned earlier (x-10 and insteon) work well together, but certainly this is true with z-wave and insteon, z-wave and UPB, UPB and insteon, all three, others...  The trick to making this work is often based upon the chosen controller (whether software or hardware) and whether it can support multiple protocols. 
 
Given what you have posted so far, perhaps the best thing for you is to purchase a handful of Z-wave switches and modules and confirm that you like them, home automation in general.  If the answer to both is yes, then decide upon a controller based on the factors important to you, including whether you have or are willing to have a computer running constantly, support for various protocols, interface to other technology (android, IOS, security, IR, home theater, audio streaming), ease of use, conditional programming, etc, cost.

 

[dgage]

Did some searching and did find that some dealers list RadioRa 2 on Amazon for reasonable prices although some are crazy ($900 dollars for a hybrid keypad is ridiculous) so pay attention.  If you need help with model numbers, we can help out...or you'd know after taking their training.
 
On Amazon, do a search for Lutron RRD- which is the model designation for RadioRa 2 devices.
 
 
And be careful mixing technologies...you could burn your house down...just kidding.  I fully plan to implement Zigbee or Zwave for locks at some point unless I run a wire from my security system to my doors for an electric door strike.