Input needed for house wiring, please.

[ctay]

I thought the reason for the 18/4 was because the keypad is part of the fire alarm and as a "life safety" device needs to be connected to the panel with red fire wire to meet most code requirements.

This wasn't the case for me. The inspector didn't really care that I used fire wire for the smokes which I found odd... In any case I would run 18/4 but not the fire rated stuff as in addition to costing more it is harder to work with. The reason I say 18/4 is not because it is really required but an extra 2 wires never hurts. I have a couple locations where I ran just 18/2 that I could use the extra 2 wires for other things I forgot about...

18/4 is more expensive so there is a trade off. You should be able to power basically any low voltage device with just 18/2. The extra 2 wires would just be insurance.

 

[beelzerob]

Ya, I'm running normal 22/2 wire to every fire alarm so I can connect to the relay and get an alarm indication on my own....but because it's secondary and doesn't interfere with the system running like it should, then the 22/2 doesn't have to be fire rated.

I understand the "you never know when you'll need more wire" argument, but I've got to draw the line somewhere. 18/2 for power and a cat5 for "other", that should meet my needs. If not...well then I end up fishing wire through the walls.

Will 18/2 and cat5 take care of almost all keypads out there?

 

[SnyperBob]

Will 18/2 and cat5 take care of almost all keypads out there?

Yes, I have the same question. And more specifically, will 18/2 and cat5 be enough for an Elk M1 keypad?

According to the description for the M1KP keypad, it looks like it needs 18/4:

Backlit, Large Character LCD Display: 16 x 2 lines, Built-in Temperature Sensor, Optional Plug-in Prox Access reader (26 bit Weigand format), Menu navigation keys and 6 programmable function keys, Plug-in connector: Only 4 wires to the control, 1 Zone Input and 1 Output Programmable per Keypad, Programmable display of time, date and temperature, Displays system diagnostics and settings.

Item Code: M1KP

 

[Steve]

The M1KP (or KP2) needs a minimum of 4 wires - 2 for the bus ( data A and B ) and 2 for power. You can use just 22/4. If you have Cat5 run, you don't need 18/2 in addition. The 18/2 would be for some futureproofing for some other keypad or screen. If you use a data bus hub (M1DBH), 6 wires of the Cat5 will be used (2 for daisy chaining the bus) which will still leave you 2 wires for either the local input or output. If you have the 18/2 there you could also use that for a local speaker.

 

[beelzerob]

Ok, good to know Steve. Thanks!

Oh, and I gave nick a call just to make sure he knew you sent me to keystone. he said that I was dealin' with the right guy (Jim) in PA. As soon as I can nail down these actual numbers, I'm going to get the order going.

 

[Steve]

Ok, good to know Steve. Thanks!

Oh, and I gave nick a call just to make sure he knew you sent me to keystone. he said that I was dealin' with the right guy (Jim) in PA. As soon as I can nail down these actual numbers, I'm going to get the order going.

Ok, that's cool. Originally the company was Platinum Wire and Cable and the only location was down here but when Keystone bought them they had other locations. Only reason I say to call Nick is to make sure you get best prices and free shipping as thats what he promised me. I'm sure the other guys are good too, but just want to be sure!

 

[beelzerob]

Ok, good to know Steve. Thanks!

Oh, and I gave nick a call just to make sure he knew you sent me to keystone. he said that I was dealin' with the right guy (Jim) in PA. As soon as I can nail down these actual numbers, I'm going to get the order going.

Ok, that's cool. Originally the company was Platinum Wire and Cable and the only location was down here but when Keystone bought them they had other locations. Only reason I say to call Nick is to make sure you get best prices and free shipping as thats what he promised me. I'm sure the other guys are good too, but just want to be sure!

Ya, Nick said that Jim was "the man" to talk to (even possibly the owner, I think). Their prices kick butt over local here, and shipping is free because of the order size. hard to beat!

 

[SnyperBob]

The M1KP (or KP2) needs a minimum of 4 wires - 2 for the bus ( data A and B ) and 2 for power. You can use just 22/4. If you have Cat5 run, you don't need 18/2 in addition. The 18/2 would be for some futureproofing for some other keypad or screen. If you use a data bus hub (M1DBH), 6 wires of the Cat5 will be used (2 for daisy chaining the bus) which will still leave you 2 wires for either the local input or output. If you have the 18/2 there you could also use that for a local speaker.

Thanks Steve,
This is the kind of information that is hard to figure out ahead of time, before actually buying everything. For my application, I may just run the cat5e without 18/2 unless I can find some for cheap

 

[felixrosbergen]

Hi guys,

I have a few questions:

I am not that familiar with 'baluns' but the concept sounds great. I assume these things just use Cat5e wiring but you cannot actually have the AV signals travel over your LAN (through switches etc) right? Just checking.

Also is there any quality loss when say tramitting HDMI via cat5e/baluns?

Eventhough baluns seem expensive it sounds like if you pull the basic RG6QS for what you need and then several Cat5e you're always covered for the future (although possibly at a price).

Also i thought that for alarm system keypads (lets say for an Elk) had to be fire rated since it's part of the alarm system. How can you use cat5 for this then? I noticed somebody said if you use elk databushub actually 6 wires are used. Does this imply you can't just use 18/4 runs from elk to kepyad and you must use cat5 (or something else with at least 6 wires)? How does this meet fire code?

I'm pretty new to all this, so forgive my ignorance.

 

[Sacedog]

I am not that familiar with 'baluns' but the concept sounds great. I assume these things just use Cat5e wiring but you cannot actually have the AV signals travel over your LAN (through switches etc) right? Just checking.

Correct. The A/V signals are point-to-point, and the Cat5 cables are not connected to your home LAN.

Also is there any quality loss when say tramitting HDMI via cat5e/baluns?

For HDMI, you will need 2 Cat5e cables for each run. I have heard good things about the HDMI baluns, and horrible things about them too. Personally, I would not use them in my setup.

Eventhough baluns seem expensive it sounds like if you pull the basic RG6QS for what you need and then several Cat5e you're always covered for the future (although possibly at a price).

I would pull Cat5e to numerous places, as it can be used for a number of different things. If you haven't done it already, read through the Wiring your Home 101 guide on Cocoontech, in the How To's and Guides section (link at top of page on the right).

Also i thought that for alarm system keypads (lets say for an Elk) had to be fire rated since it's part of the alarm system. How can you use cat5 for this then? I noticed somebody said if you use elk databushub actually 6 wires are used. Does this imply you can't just use 18/4 runs from elk to kepyad and you must use cat5 (or something else with at least 6 wires)? How does this meet fire code?

This depends on local codes. Typically, only life safety systems, such as fire alarms have to use fire wire for the sensors and the sounders (sirens). The Elk keypad requires only 4 wires back to the M1G, to connect it to the 485 bus. There are 6 flying leads on the keypad itself; the last two are for local zones.

 

[beelzerob]

Eventhough baluns seem expensive it sounds like if you pull the basic RG6QS for what you need and then several Cat5e you're always covered for the future (although possibly at a price).

Definitely at a price. Each of my TV drops contain 5 RG59 for component video and analog audio, and there are 6 TV drops in the house. All of the RG59 required for that (can't remember how many 1000 feet of it) was equivalent to one pair of balun. So, for the same price, it was the difference between 1 TV location and 6. However, it would have been a LOT easier to just run Cat5e instead of all those RG59. So, if money isn't an issue, then I'd say go for it.

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Or, use RapidRun. I like that even better.

 

[IVB]

The issue I have with RapidRun is that it's preterminated, so you may have a ton of slack based on your particular distance.

But it is nice stuff...

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Well, the length options are VERY flexible though. We've been carrying it for a while now but it hasn't made it to the website yet. We also allow people to order extra and return whatever pieces weren't needed.

 

[IVB]

Actually, my issue is that I'd have to measure my runs before ordering the cable. How boring is that - nothing like pull, cut, *then* measure