hucker
Active Member
You're right, I said powerline when I really meant not-hardwired. Thanks for the correction. Especially on this thread where I was trying to reduce confusion!
Starting down the home security\automation\integration path..
- Thread starter whatuusay1
- Start date
You're right, I said powerline when I really meant not-hardwired. Thanks for the correction. Especially on this thread where I was trying to reduce confusion!
hucker
Active Member
Hucker - The can of worms I didnt want to open are people who rely on pc's for security functions, which generally leads to arguements on pc stability vs hardware. I personally think i would prefer to leave security features up to specialized hardware and allow the pc to interface into those functions - idealy via TCP/IP (wired ethernet).
I havent really crossed off Z-wave, I originally got on this track by following the MiCasa Vera project which seems fairly rough around the edges. The forums are littered with small but dealbreaking problems (resetting the zwaze controlers, lockups, time sync problems, as well as a very early scripting technology. I would write off Vera but its one of the few Zwave controllers to support the Schlage locks which I would love to have (confirmation of locked doors). Are there better options I should be concidering? I know the schlage locks out today dont actually move the deadbolt so they may not really be what I'm looking for. I'm looking at full out rf access control locks on the doors... how crazy is that?
I'm not sure there is anybody here who is running security in a PC based system. Certainly you could do it with a ton of digital I/O, but it would never compete on price and keypads would be expensive and odd. I do think PC's are more reliable that they get credit for especially if they have no user interaction and just run the automation.
I haven't done the door lock thing, but the ZWave solution is pretty cool. Another option would be to use door strikes, which are industry standard in building security and I'm sure some high end home stuff. Door strikes could easily be run off of most controllers, and would be pretty easy to integrate since controllers talk to relays very well.
I think strikes are the way to go if you can run wire. The only problem is that I haven't really seen any that work with deadbolts, so if you're concerned about the door being able to resist forceful opening, then they might not be for you. However, buying a high quality commercial door latch and either using a steel door frame or one of those door frame reinforcement plates would probably give you decent protection without a deadbolt.
I'm planning on doing strikes for my garage and outdoor gates, and using 26-bit weigand keypads for access. I don't want to carry a prox card, and the weigand compatible fingerprint readers are currently a complete ripoff at $600+.
I'm planning on doing strikes for my garage and outdoor gates, and using 26-bit weigand keypads for access. I don't want to carry a prox card, and the weigand compatible fingerprint readers are currently a complete ripoff at $600+.
whatuusay1
Member
Hmm - Whatever solution needs to be secure, I currently have a solid wood front door and a steel rear door. I can wire for door strikes since I have basement access beneath the first floor. I know they would add complexity to whatever system I go with but I'd really like to be able to have a visual confirmation that all doors are closed and locked. I can get 'closed' via contact sensors but no way at the moment to show if the doors are actually locked (deadbolts on each). Am I the only one wanting this information? Has anyone else had luck with the closed vs locked status?
Thanks again,
Andrew
MarkGilmore
Member
hi andrew,
UPB is the most robust (but most expensive) powerline tech available.
Insteon modules tend to get "confused" as more modules are added to the network.
And they also seem to fail at roughly the same rate as X10 modules.
Please see http://OmnipotenceSoftware.com/wp_lighting...rol_methods.htm for more info.
Regards,
Mark Gilmore
UPB is the most robust (but most expensive) powerline tech available.
Insteon modules tend to get "confused" as more modules are added to the network.
And they also seem to fail at roughly the same rate as X10 modules.
Please see http://OmnipotenceSoftware.com/wp_lighting...rol_methods.htm for more info.
Regards,
Mark Gilmore
Steve
Senior Member
Mark,
There are are few things on that page that I think should be improved or clarified a bit. The line under UPB where you said "Communication is two-way: Modules respond to commands (so you know the module's state). " can be misleading to people. Since the device by default does not send out an update of status when triggered by a link, a controller that does not poll or issues other command will not track state properly. This is a well documented issue here especially when talking about the Elk M1G. Your software may work around this and your status screens may always be accurate but since you are pointing people to that page generically not in reference to your software, I think it should be clarified a bit so people do not run into that issue.
Also at the bottom section "How to determine if a power line technology (X10 / UPB / Insteon) will work well in your building" I think that's a great start but I prefer to test UPB with UPStart and looking at Signal and Noise readings. It's much more effective than hit or miss testing. especially in a larger building where it may just simply require a phase coupler to work perfectly. You would only know that by seeing if the problem is noise or a weak signal.
I just mention these things simply to help you improve your site if you wanted too.
On a minor note, I think the CT rules state that your affiliation with Omnipotence Software be stated in your sig. Not a big deal, but some people may see the link to your site as an advertisement for your software even though it just contains tech info. No big deal to me, but you just may want to cya just in case.
If someone is going to use Insteon they should probably wait until all of the devices are truly dual mesh (more and more being released) as they have the best chance of reliable communications. That will be a step above X-10. This assumes that SH has fixed all of their quality issues as well.
If you cant wait for that (and if it never happens) then UPB is probably the most reliable Power Line system in production. Hardwired would still be best.
FYI it looks like SH dumped the older non dual mesh devices to liquidators as you can find them on ebay brand new for ridiculously low prices (probably just above SH cost to mfg).
If you cant wait for that (and if it never happens) then UPB is probably the most reliable Power Line system in production. Hardwired would still be best.
FYI it looks like SH dumped the older non dual mesh devices to liquidators as you can find them on ebay brand new for ridiculously low prices (probably just above SH cost to mfg).
Photon
Active Member
I installed a reinforced box for one of my deadbolts to extend into. I fashoned a small hinged tab inside the box such that the bolt swings it up when it is engaged. Tiny magnet on the tab and sensor in the roof of the box. A small amount of code in the Elk announces a fault if the door is left open but the deadbolt indicates secure in case someone trys to jam the tab in the "secure" position. It has worked well, and I expect to install such a bolt sensor on the remainder of the doors.
whatuusay1
Member
Would you mind taking some pictures or perhaps a list of the componants used? I was thinking that might be a way to detect if the deadbolt is actually in the 'lock' position. Also - is this a 2 or 4 wire senson? I'm asuming 2 but wanted to confirm how you wired it up.
Thanks!
Andrew
Photon
Active Member
I began with a reinforced striker box for the deadbolt like this one: http://www.magsecurity.com/products.aspx?id=77&mid=17 . I found a suitable pivot pin in my junk box and drilled a couple holes for it near the top of the opening. I cut a flapper from sheet aluminum which pivots on the pin and has a tiny magnet on the swinging end. I mounted a tiny contact inside the top of the box where the magnet ends up when the deadbolt extends: https://www.tselectronic.com/tane/tanemicro.html . I ran a four-conductor cable to the door. One pair goes to the Tane contact, and the other goes to another magnetic contact that detects the door position. A photo won't show much, but maybe you can see the flapper hanging down into the path of the bolt.
whatuusay1
Member
Milestone! ... First major purchase for the home security / automation project
I picked up the brueltech ECM-1240 package (PKGB/200 Etherport) to monitor house power... figure this will be a nice addition. I can add this and the whole house surge protector at the same time. Pending sucess.. I'll follow up with pictures. Keep the good ideas coming, lots to consider. I think I'll be going UPB for lighting control, I might pick up some insteon sensors just to play around with them. I'm all for being frugal where its fesible. Thanks for the great ideas on the door locks - I might add some sort of magnetic sensor instead of full blown access control strikes.
Does anyone know if the Elk M1 supports the new Schlage zwave locks? The lock/unlock piece looks pretty but I dont want their gateway and VersamiCasa doesnt seem stable enough (imho).
Thanks!
Andrew
I picked up the brueltech ECM-1240 package (PKGB/200 Etherport) to monitor house power... figure this will be a nice addition. I can add this and the whole house surge protector at the same time. Pending sucess.. I'll follow up with pictures. Keep the good ideas coming, lots to consider. I think I'll be going UPB for lighting control, I might pick up some insteon sensors just to play around with them. I'm all for being frugal where its fesible. Thanks for the great ideas on the door locks - I might add some sort of magnetic sensor instead of full blown access control strikes.
Does anyone know if the Elk M1 supports the new Schlage zwave locks? The lock/unlock piece looks pretty but I dont want their gateway and VersamiCasa doesnt seem stable enough (imho).
Thanks!
Andrew
I definately wanted a hardware solution for my security system, but also a bit of automation. Based on this, I chose the ELKM1G. I put in my system about 2 years ago and absolutely love it. It is very reliable, even though I had what I considered tough installation requirements from the wife.
1) Garage, main floor, finished basement, and unfinished basement each on seperate zones that can be armed and disarmed seperately.
2) Only want 1 keypad at the entry, so garage, finished basement, and unfinished basement need to arm and unarm automatically based on occupancy.
3) Need to be able to toggle on and off various features without having to remember how to use bypass functions.
4) Living room area has to be able to arm and unarm at night based on specific movement (if LR motion is detected and hallway motion was just detected, then disarm, otherwise trigger alarm).
5) Need various modes like guest, overnight guest, etc. that can be easily changed to prevent false alarms.
I ended up having to use around 35% of the ELK memory to write the rules, but they have worked great. I am currently expanding my system to allow wireless network control as well as water pump and flood monitoring (Plus a bit of rewiring due to n00bie mistakes). After that I may start looking at fun stuff to do with an automation computer and software, but will have to see. The different lighting possibilities have me a bit overwelmed.
1) Garage, main floor, finished basement, and unfinished basement each on seperate zones that can be armed and disarmed seperately.
2) Only want 1 keypad at the entry, so garage, finished basement, and unfinished basement need to arm and unarm automatically based on occupancy.
3) Need to be able to toggle on and off various features without having to remember how to use bypass functions.
4) Living room area has to be able to arm and unarm at night based on specific movement (if LR motion is detected and hallway motion was just detected, then disarm, otherwise trigger alarm).
5) Need various modes like guest, overnight guest, etc. that can be easily changed to prevent false alarms.
I ended up having to use around 35% of the ELK memory to write the rules, but they have worked great. I am currently expanding my system to allow wireless network control as well as water pump and flood monitoring (Plus a bit of rewiring due to n00bie mistakes). After that I may start looking at fun stuff to do with an automation computer and software, but will have to see. The different lighting possibilities have me a bit overwelmed.
whatuusay1
Member
Junior - Thats awesome! I hadnt even thought of arming and disarming the system if motion is detected in the hallway bedrooms - in case we go downstairs in the middle of the night. I'll have to put some thinking into how I'd like the system react. What kind of wiring mistakes did you make.. just curious
I'm trying to avoid the typical newbie mistakes. I also picked up a Circuit Breaker Finder Kit to help with the Brueltech install --> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002FP0DB...x_ya_oh_productWe had 2 alarm companies stop by last week to quote an Elk M1 install - no quotes yet. I expect them to be in the $2-2500 ballpark. I'll probably end up with a DIY install, adding to the system as budget allows - sure would be nice if the quotes come in below 2k, but I'm sure I would have to use wireless for most sensors (which I dont want to do - I want as many wired contacts as possible).
Both professionals re-enforced the ideas I've picked up here, I was somewhat suprised that both companies recommended what I would concider a relatively low level of security, and quite a few compromises.
I also had them add access control to the front door - just curious. Both estimated around $2500 per door.. which seems quite expensive. I checked and the door strikes are no more than $100 and I cant imagine a relay board, RF reader and some keycards would add another 1-200 to the package. Does anyone have good documentation, guides, or ideas on the access control piece? I'm deff a handy guy, and familier with DIY so I imagine I can handle the install.. but if anyone has thoughts or comments I'd love to hear them. I'm also intrigued with the magnet / contact sensor idea - It seems like a great way to identify which doors have the deadbolts in the lock position.
Good luck with that circuit breaker finder. I bought one and it was garbage, returned it.
The ELK has access control capability. Get the ELK relay board to run your door strike power, and then just get a 26-bit weigand compatible proximity card reader and hook it into the 4 pins on the back of the ELK KP1 or KP2 keypads (the little arming station pads don't have support for this). ELK makes or rebrands a prox sensor which will work. I think I've seen it as low as $50. Then you can create users in ElkRP and start assigning cards to them and writing automation rules to pop the door open when the card is scanned. $2500 a door is way too much money if you've already got the ELK. A door strike and reader should cost under $200 per door, and a relay board is under $100 (which can be used for multiple doors). It's probably wise to buy a separate power supply for the door strike power also.
The ELK has access control capability. Get the ELK relay board to run your door strike power, and then just get a 26-bit weigand compatible proximity card reader and hook it into the 4 pins on the back of the ELK KP1 or KP2 keypads (the little arming station pads don't have support for this). ELK makes or rebrands a prox sensor which will work. I think I've seen it as low as $50. Then you can create users in ElkRP and start assigning cards to them and writing automation rules to pop the door open when the card is scanned. $2500 a door is way too much money if you've already got the ELK. A door strike and reader should cost under $200 per door, and a relay board is under $100 (which can be used for multiple doors). It's probably wise to buy a separate power supply for the door strike power also.
