upstatemike
Senior Member
OK, I guess if you can't program it yourself then it isn't likely to be of interest to folks here.Jay C said:
I also checked their list of dealers in Central New York (315 area code). There aren't any.
Z-Wave vs Insteon - Opinions?
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
I also checked their list of dealers in Central New York (315 area code). There aren't any.
Hello,
Here is my review of each of the device mentioned in this thread.
We tried to be very agnostic about what lighting solution we offer to our customers, but each solution is different.
Insteon:
Insteon does deliver a lower cost solution, and seams to be very reliable. What seems to make them reliable is the ability to put RF repeaters in and that each device can repeat a command up to 3 hops. I also like the lower profile switches with makes wiring a little bit easier. You can setup links by using there tap - tap method or software. We will me releasing a link manager to our software later next week. Insteon does take a little bit to get use to because each device has its own link table. Also Insteon is very new, so it is still being improved upon, and is still being proven.
We currently have an Insteon installation with 120 devices, and it is work like a champ. Managing links in each devices from a link management software does take time, because each link in a switch take 10-15 sec to read or write, so it could take you several minutes to manage the links in one device.
UPB:
UPB seems to be reliable. We usually refer our professional installers to use these switches. There construction seems to be more rugged, and they have a longer warranty period. It is a little bit harder to install, but once it is installed you almost forget about it. I did have a Wife factor on these switches because of there buzzing sound they produced when you click the switch. They also do delay a little bit when you turn them on or off, but you get use to it. To setup links with UPB you will need to use UPB link manager, because UPB keeps control of how to program each manufacture devices. UPB can be crippled by noise on the lines so it is not 100% guaranty, but it way better then X10 was. I would say UPB is more reliable then Insteon when Insteon is not using the RF part.
Z-Wave:
Z-Wave does have several manufactures supporting them, but you still do not have too many options to buying them. RF is faster and very reliable. There is a very serious problem with Z-Wave and that is that they do not support instant status feedback. The controlling software has to constantly poll the switches to find out if they have changed, so this cuts down on reliability, and it may take a few minutes before the Controller ever knew it was turned on manually.
Control4 ZigBee:
The first note is that all of Control4 devices use a Control4 Version of ZigBee. So if Control4 where to ever sale there company, or just goes under, you will be stuck with a very proprietary device. ZigBee controller also has to poll each device on the network to find out there current status. If you have a large install of say over 50 Control4 Devices, the 200Mhz Control4 Controller just starts to get bogged down because it is trying to keep updated status on all of the devices.
Thanks
JBDWW
Here is my review of each of the device mentioned in this thread.
We tried to be very agnostic about what lighting solution we offer to our customers, but each solution is different.
Insteon:
Insteon does deliver a lower cost solution, and seams to be very reliable. What seems to make them reliable is the ability to put RF repeaters in and that each device can repeat a command up to 3 hops. I also like the lower profile switches with makes wiring a little bit easier. You can setup links by using there tap - tap method or software. We will me releasing a link manager to our software later next week. Insteon does take a little bit to get use to because each device has its own link table. Also Insteon is very new, so it is still being improved upon, and is still being proven.
We currently have an Insteon installation with 120 devices, and it is work like a champ. Managing links in each devices from a link management software does take time, because each link in a switch take 10-15 sec to read or write, so it could take you several minutes to manage the links in one device.
UPB:
UPB seems to be reliable. We usually refer our professional installers to use these switches. There construction seems to be more rugged, and they have a longer warranty period. It is a little bit harder to install, but once it is installed you almost forget about it. I did have a Wife factor on these switches because of there buzzing sound they produced when you click the switch. They also do delay a little bit when you turn them on or off, but you get use to it. To setup links with UPB you will need to use UPB link manager, because UPB keeps control of how to program each manufacture devices. UPB can be crippled by noise on the lines so it is not 100% guaranty, but it way better then X10 was. I would say UPB is more reliable then Insteon when Insteon is not using the RF part.
Z-Wave:
Z-Wave does have several manufactures supporting them, but you still do not have too many options to buying them. RF is faster and very reliable. There is a very serious problem with Z-Wave and that is that they do not support instant status feedback. The controlling software has to constantly poll the switches to find out if they have changed, so this cuts down on reliability, and it may take a few minutes before the Controller ever knew it was turned on manually.
Control4 ZigBee:
The first note is that all of Control4 devices use a Control4 Version of ZigBee. So if Control4 where to ever sale there company, or just goes under, you will be stuck with a very proprietary device. ZigBee controller also has to poll each device on the network to find out there current status. If you have a large install of say over 50 Control4 Devices, the 200Mhz Control4 Controller just starts to get bogged down because it is trying to keep updated status on all of the devices.
Thanks
JBDWW
upstatemike
Senior Member
Great summary... thanks for the input!jbdww said:
Anything that chokes above 50 devices is certainly a problem. I have 3X that many Insteon devices and I'm just doing the basics. I will eventually have many more devices and (as I have said many times) scalability is a critical requirement for any Home Automation product I might consider; be it a switch technology, controller, or whatever.
Steve
Senior Member
Yes, thanks for the nice comparison. Just a few clarifying questions/comments on the bolded comments.jbdww said:
1. Harder to install how? You mean the physical switch installation or setup with UPStart? I can see maybe slightly harder physical install because they are a bit deeper but I actually think they are much easier to setup than Insteon using UPStart. And UPStart which is free will work with any manufacturers switch. Smarthome currently has no equal to UPStart for Insteon and while other vendors such as yourself and Powerhome are creating your own link management software I think it is easier to use a standardized free application. This is strictly my opinion.
2. I agree 100% that UPB and Insteon are more reliable than X10. Even with the RF bridge, which really is no different then a regular phase coupler, except wireless, I don't think Insteon would be any more reliable than UPB. I think they both can suffer from PLC noise but are both very reliable. Nothing is 100% except hardwire.
KenM
Active Member
Hi all,
I received an Intermatic HA07, 12 channel Z-Wave, portable controller today, as well as three Z-Wave Intermatic HA03, plug in, lamp modules.
I am happy. I replaced three Insteon plug in dimmer modules with the Z-Wave. I played with the controller about five minutes and was able to set up several timers and scenes. I will report back with the accuracy of those. So far, the Insteon PLC timers are at best within 20 seconds a week (that is at best). At worst the Insteon timers do not happen, and no one is really sure why, or even seems to care. My Insteon PLCs no longer touch my power lines. I like the HA07 because no computer is required to set up timers, it runs on batteries, if the power goes out, it is still going to run.
Funny, when my wife saw me playing with the HA07 controller, she asked "where are you going to put that?", thinking of the ugly black power cord on the controlLink. When I held it up and said "no wires, it runs on batteries", I actually got a smile. The controlLink is now in my junk box.
As near as I can figure out, so far, Insteon has the advantage in tweakability. Also, as near as I can figure out, If all of the Insteon modules worked as advertised from the start, I would not now be replacing them with Z-Wave.
A note on the HomePro Z-Wave ZDW100 dimmers. While pressing the key for 'dim' the unit will go to full bright, and then dim. I have got a Intermatic HA06C wall dimmer that I plan to test out as soon as possible. If it does not do that 'bright-dim' thing, then it will most likely be my first choice. The Intermatic 'plug in' dimmer modules will only start going 'brighter' or 'dimmer' when those keys are pressed. None of that annoying 'bright then dim' stuff. That is good.
Ken
I received an Intermatic HA07, 12 channel Z-Wave, portable controller today, as well as three Z-Wave Intermatic HA03, plug in, lamp modules.
I am happy. I replaced three Insteon plug in dimmer modules with the Z-Wave. I played with the controller about five minutes and was able to set up several timers and scenes. I will report back with the accuracy of those. So far, the Insteon PLC timers are at best within 20 seconds a week (that is at best). At worst the Insteon timers do not happen, and no one is really sure why, or even seems to care. My Insteon PLCs no longer touch my power lines. I like the HA07 because no computer is required to set up timers, it runs on batteries, if the power goes out, it is still going to run.
Funny, when my wife saw me playing with the HA07 controller, she asked "where are you going to put that?", thinking of the ugly black power cord on the controlLink. When I held it up and said "no wires, it runs on batteries", I actually got a smile. The controlLink is now in my junk box.
As near as I can figure out, so far, Insteon has the advantage in tweakability. Also, as near as I can figure out, If all of the Insteon modules worked as advertised from the start, I would not now be replacing them with Z-Wave.
A note on the HomePro Z-Wave ZDW100 dimmers. While pressing the key for 'dim' the unit will go to full bright, and then dim. I have got a Intermatic HA06C wall dimmer that I plan to test out as soon as possible. If it does not do that 'bright-dim' thing, then it will most likely be my first choice. The Intermatic 'plug in' dimmer modules will only start going 'brighter' or 'dimmer' when those keys are pressed. None of that annoying 'bright then dim' stuff. That is good.
Ken
johnnynine
Active Member
1. Can anyone else confirm this? And comment on performance and reliability when monitoring?jbdww said:
2. As I recall the Elk M1 supports ZWave. Does it do a better job than Insteon?
ChrisWalker
Active Member
One of the differentiating features in Z-Wave devices is "live status." A number of the "higher fit and finish" have this feature built into them. This capability has been built into the protocol for as long as I can remember--but it's up to manufacturers to implement desired features in their products.johnnynine said:
I don't see how polling vs. live status would change the reliability of Z-Wave, though.
Chris
It does not affect the reliability of Z-Wave, but might affect the reliability of the HA system if the main controller (per instance, the Elk M1G) thinks that a given device is off, but it is ON because of local control or because another controller was used to turn it on. Since the controlled Z-Wave device only sends the "live status" to the controller sending the command (and not the M1G), then the main controller misses the actual state of the device. The same happens if you want to get the state of your appliances/lights via internet. In this situation polling (if your number of devices is not too high) is the only alternative.ChrisWalker said:
All depend on the logic of your HA system. For human or computer remote control Z-Wave's implementation of live status is perfect. For a smart home automation system or for web control (were others at the site can make local changes) only a protocol with peer-to-peer live status notification would work.
ChrisWalker
Active Member
I'm sorry, I guess I confused issues here. The kind of "live status" I'm talking about is peer-to-peer. In other words, if you locally control a device that status would be sent out to others on the network.elcano said:
Chris
I just want to add my new ZWave experience -- similar to KenM I am switching, but from UPB, to ZWave and my first batch of devices (dimmer modules, wall dimmer, and the HA07 master controller) has arrived. Having "installed" them, I like them enough to order the second batch to continue the testing. Some initial observations:
Works as advertised. This is being installed in a loft that is long (56 ft) but without too many walls. It works from one end to the other, with lots of electronics around.
Programming is easy but no where easy as using UPStart. I dread the day I have to change the scenes or re-assign buttons (channels) on controllers. We need software !
I bought the HA07 Master controller to act as the network master because it has an LCD display, easier to do the programming. While that is very true, the LCD is NOT back lighted. It is impossible to see it in dim light.
The dimmer modules are big and I wish it has local device sensing, and perhaps a passthru socket. Now I basically have to control any attached lights using the remote. It is not practical to go behind the tables to get to the little button to switch on/off/dim the attached device.
The wall dimmer seems well made and the switch has a light but positive feel to it. Feels like a good microswitch behind it. I have not installed it yet (it's getting dark).
Will keep you informed with my progress. Now off to order more devices and the SDK.
Works as advertised. This is being installed in a loft that is long (56 ft) but without too many walls. It works from one end to the other, with lots of electronics around.
Programming is easy but no where easy as using UPStart. I dread the day I have to change the scenes or re-assign buttons (channels) on controllers. We need software !
I bought the HA07 Master controller to act as the network master because it has an LCD display, easier to do the programming. While that is very true, the LCD is NOT back lighted. It is impossible to see it in dim light.
The dimmer modules are big and I wish it has local device sensing, and perhaps a passthru socket. Now I basically have to control any attached lights using the remote. It is not practical to go behind the tables to get to the little button to switch on/off/dim the attached device.
The wall dimmer seems well made and the switch has a light but positive feel to it. Feels like a good microswitch behind it. I have not installed it yet (it's getting dark).
Will keep you informed with my progress. Now off to order more devices and the SDK.
I'm pleased to see that z-wave can do peer-to-peer live status update. While I have other challenges for RF (concrete house and metal gang boxes), this was a deciding factor against it for me.ChrisWalker said:
I just would like to see the device manufacturers stating either here or at their sites which models support this functionality.
KenM
Active Member
Hi,
I got in a Z-Wave HomePro ZTH100 (v1.26) wireless controller today and played with it for about a half hour.
The ZTH100 is more complicated to operate than the Intermatic HA07. It also has a lot more features. The ZTH100 will allow you to read and set the ZTT100 thermostat (I'm not buying one of those just yet, no need for it). It will allow you to associate the ZIR000 PIR (passive IR) sensor to other devices. If the sensor goes off, another device can be turned on. The sensors also have tamper and low battery events that can be associated with via ZTH100, I do have a ZIR000 PIR on order so that evaluation will follow. The ZTH100 can also send out configuration commands to network devices that are configurable.
The ZTH100 strikes me as something that a technician would get a lot of good use out of. It does have numbered buttons on it that can be programmed to activate scenes and could serve well as a simple remote control.
I did copy the 'network' from my HA07 into the ZTH100 without any problem at all. I am currently using the HA07 as the primary (add/delete device) controller and the ZTH100 as a secondary controller.
I can now picture at least one of you all, setting back, and thinking, "All of that stuff isn't anything special." The special part is that I am able to do all of my Z-Wave programming and control (to date) without a PC interface of any kind.
I'm impressed. I have a SDK kit on order but am starting to realize that PC control is not necessary in order to set up a good Z-Wave 'home control' network.
Ken
I got in a Z-Wave HomePro ZTH100 (v1.26) wireless controller today and played with it for about a half hour.
The ZTH100 is more complicated to operate than the Intermatic HA07. It also has a lot more features. The ZTH100 will allow you to read and set the ZTT100 thermostat (I'm not buying one of those just yet, no need for it). It will allow you to associate the ZIR000 PIR (passive IR) sensor to other devices. If the sensor goes off, another device can be turned on. The sensors also have tamper and low battery events that can be associated with via ZTH100, I do have a ZIR000 PIR on order so that evaluation will follow. The ZTH100 can also send out configuration commands to network devices that are configurable.
The ZTH100 strikes me as something that a technician would get a lot of good use out of. It does have numbered buttons on it that can be programmed to activate scenes and could serve well as a simple remote control.
I did copy the 'network' from my HA07 into the ZTH100 without any problem at all. I am currently using the HA07 as the primary (add/delete device) controller and the ZTH100 as a secondary controller.
I can now picture at least one of you all, setting back, and thinking, "All of that stuff isn't anything special." The special part is that I am able to do all of my Z-Wave programming and control (to date) without a PC interface of any kind.
I'm impressed. I have a SDK kit on order but am starting to realize that PC control is not necessary in order to set up a good Z-Wave 'home control' network.
Ken
Having said that, how easy is it to edit a timer/scene or even "display" the scene events? I am so looking for a solution to replace a HouseLinc and X10. I've had to pare down my original plans (back when I bought it) due to it major quirk and that's it's "battery backup". If I wasn't able to store my timers, scenes, and macros on my PC and download it everytime the damn thing lost it's clock I would have taken a hammer to it.KenM said:Hi,
I'm impressed. I have a SDK kit on order but am starting to realize that PC control is not necessary in order to set up a good Z-Wave 'home control' network.
Ken
Also, I've not heard anyone speak very fondly of HomePro (ACT) ZWave stuff since I started reading about the technology. I will need/want PIR for my replacement system so I look forward to your findings. This stuff ain't cheap, so your explorations will be used as a big part of my research in my decision.
Thanks for your efforts,
Jay
upstatemike
Senior Member
Ken-
Can you give some more details about the Z-Wave switches? Are they really a lot deeper than Insteon ones. Any Cool LED or Faceplate options?
Also, if you aren't going to use a PC, I assume you will need at least 2 controllers so you have a backup copy of the network (or am I misunderstanding how that works?)
Can you give some more details about the Z-Wave switches? Are they really a lot deeper than Insteon ones. Any Cool LED or Faceplate options?
Also, if you aren't going to use a PC, I assume you will need at least 2 controllers so you have a backup copy of the network (or am I misunderstanding how that works?)
